On the subject of HiFi

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vinylnvalves
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#31 Re: On the subject of HiFi

Post by vinylnvalves »

Probably both, a single point source as we know is the easiest implementation, as there aren’t lobbing issues. Maybe down to the differences in directionality at the crossover points things aren’t as linear as with a single driver. Maybe I am mixing my drinks with phase and directionality. I have heard some poor implementations of coaxial drivers - so crossovers aren’t straight forward even when the other aspects are removed. Having heard some demo’s of linear phase being implemented on the fly via a DSP, a lot of the issues did seem to go away, which suggests to me phase is important, rightly or wrongly.
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Nick
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#32 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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I listen in a wierd manner
Maybe, but what you describe is exactly what I have repeatedly said over the years is the most important part for me. What you describe is to me what I mean when I use the word Transparency.

For me tonal colour is once the above is in place and I can hear the individual parts of the sound, its how much depth and harmonic structure (how the harmonics, dissonances and overtones of a sound) stack up and align to give the sound (the small individual parts of the sound in the structure that's revealed by transparency) realism and solidity.
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#33 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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Maybe I am mixing my drinks with phase and directionality
Maybe, I think so, I certainly don't think that what Mark means when he talk about phase, and not what I head when I made slight changes to the phase response to the LF in phono stage.
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#34 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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This is where the words come into it because i would use the word clean to describe what i mean. So for me the cleaner it sounds the more transparent it is to nick.
And the cleaner (me), more transparent (nick) it is, more of tonal colour (mark) is revealed. I also find the cleaner (me) it is the more cohesive (steve) it sounds.

I don't think there are many cross purposes between us.

Eds triangles and f3 at owston sounded very cohesive to me, it sounded right which must mean it fit in with my defenition of what i personally am looking for
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vinylnvalves
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#35 Re: On the subject of HiFi

Post by vinylnvalves »

Nick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:41 am
Maybe I am mixing my drinks with phase and directionality
Maybe, I think so, I certainly don't think that what Mark means when he talk about phase, and not what I head when I made slight changes to the phase response to the LF in phono stage.
What I don’t understand is why we get hung up about phase errors in amps etc, aren’t they at least an order of magnitude less than the speaker drivers we use to the generate sound. Or am I missing an important point, in the gain structure, from source to speaker?
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#36 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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Depends on what you mean by the etc in "Amps etc". In my case I was talking about the RIAA eq in a phono stage.

I guess though its the same as the distortion in an amp seems to matter down to 0.001% and lower for higher orders, while the distortion from the source and loudspeaker is orders of magnitude greater.

I would say we get "hung up" about them because it seems to matter.
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#37 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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I would think the simple answer is just because there is distortion and phase errors in two or more places, they don't seem to mask each other.
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#38 Re: On the subject of HiFi

Post by IslandPink »

I would say Yes to Steve though, the speakers cause the majority of the phase problems.
RIAA next most important as Nick has flagged.
You can hear the other stuff when you're operating in the prime band of each driver, for example the top HF octave can be fine through a good tweeter, but then you can hear a tip resonance on an MC cartridge screwing up the tone & detail. I have a pet hate of carts that have a resonance just outside the audio band - because the phase is still affected up to an octave below.
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#39 Re: On the subject of HiFi

Post by vinylnvalves »

Mark, you must be Britain’s answer to the bionic man, did you have an ear transplant in your youth :) . As half of what you can hear, must go over my head... I would be a gibbering wreck if I was listening for these things.

When I sit and listen, generally I am happy with what I have, it creates the 3D illusion and on live recordings I feel like I am in the stadium etc.
What I am disappointed about, is the systems ability to recreate a kick drum. (I know what one sounds like, we have a studio at the bottom of the garden, for my lad to take it out on the skins ). I started with 8” drivers and ended up at one point with 2 15” drivers - just cannot capture the attack and definition. The kick drum is 22” ?? diameter and moves maybe 0.25” - so should be able to replicate.
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#40 Re: On the subject of HiFi

Post by Nick »

It may not help, but amplifiers are surprisingly important to reproduce the sound of drums. I remember at Owston Ed commented about the drum sound using my OB's and system. Later I realized I had forgotten that one thing that those monoblock amps seem to do better than anything else I have heard is make drums sound special. I don't know why, but at least to me (and maybe Ed) they do.
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#41 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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vinylnvalves wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:18 pm Mark, you must be Britain’s answer to the bionic man, did you have an ear transplant in your youth :) . As half of what you can hear, must go over my head... I would be a gibbering wreck if I was listening for these things.
thanks Steve, that was exactly what I was trying to say in my ill conceived earlier post.
It was really prompted by what Mark wrote in another thread...
islanpink wrote: When we started this forum it was about HiFi and still inspired by the New York 1990's valve scene and Sound Practices.
Now i feel it's too much about 'Can I make something DIY that sounds OK ?' .
The bottom line for me, again, is that we're all in it for different reasons and we all value different things, and we all hear different things.
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#42 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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ed wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:32 pm
vinylnvalves wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:18 pm Mark, you must be Britain’s answer to the bionic man, did you have an ear transplant in your youth :) . As half of what you can hear, must go over my head... I would be a gibbering wreck if I was listening for these things.
thanks Steve, that was exactly what I was trying to say in my ill conceived earlier post.
It was really prompted by what Mark wrote in another thread
I am happy to get tarred and feathered for my comment. :D
I enjoy the challenge of trying to build better speakers, on a parallel road to most. The DIY community now have many more tools at their disposal than in the 90’s. We had a scene over here with “Audio Conversions” instead of “Sound Practices” - same agenda, getting a silk purse out of a sows ear, mainly around Sage or Crimsion amp modules and painting the edges of CD’s, as turntables were dead back then.

On the topic of some amps being better for kick drums, I will have to think about it, as the current Anaview AMS amplifier modules are better than the Hypex Ncore ones i had. However the best rendition of kick drums was listening to the Grimm Audio LS1, which used the Hypex amps and the same sub drivers I have. Different implementation though...... food of thought
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#43 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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On the topic of some amps being better for kick drums,
Well. to be precise I was talking about drums in general.
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#44 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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ed wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:37 am I am becoming increasingly convinced that Mark doesn't have the same hobby as me. I'm also feeling that he doesn't get as much enjoyment from listening to music as I do....
That's an interesting leap in logic..
You may be correct but at least i suspect you listen to more music than i do.
Please note that i do spend quite a bit of time watching music clips and LPs on Youtube in the evenings, so i don't need to listen to everything at high quality on the main system to get pleasure.
It's notable that when I've had depression to any significant extent ( hopefully not too much in the future ) , then I lose all interest in music.

I would like to listen to some music while working, like a lot of people do, but I've found that I lose too much concentration on the design work, I need all of my brain cells on the design job these days.
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vinylnvalves
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#45 Re: On the subject of HiFi

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Nick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:16 pm
On the topic of some amps being better for kick drums,
Well. to be precise I was talking about drums in general.
I am probably talking about all drums in general as found in a standard 11 piece or smaller kit, the big kettle drums and the like not included. I limited by expectations of being able to replicate the likes of the cannon in the 1812 overture along time ago.
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