audio-talk

chris661 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:02 pm Having spent a while working with equipment that has to work come-what-may, I find the talk of mains cable differences quite disorientating.

Believe... believe...

Not trying to start an argument, genuinely interested….
How can the 1m from the wall to the amp make a difference unless you also change the 10s of m in the wall?

I actually have a Russ Andrews mains cable hanging on a hook in the workshop, along with a few diy mains cables, but I don’t use them anymore. I freely admit that I am not the most discriminating listener, it can take me a while to decide whether something sounds better (or even different)

I have no experience and no axe to grind ref. mains cables, Max. It's tough to see what the mechanisms for differences might be, but working with a lot of ideas and 'stuff' over the years has certainly thrown up some surprises, and I like to keep an open mind.

Max N wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:55 pm Not trying to start an argument, genuinely interested….
How can the 1m from the wall to the amp make a difference unless you also change the 10s of m in the wall?

Only two ways that I think of:
1/ If it can't handle the current demands (i.e. isn't fit for purpose) and
2/ If its putting some RFI etc. into other components or wires, in which case shielding may (may) be beneficial.

I know what you mean Mark, I’ve been surprised a few times as well

Back in the day someone recommended mains-rated caps fitted to the power inlet, and I felt that made a difference, but I can see a mechanism there

Scottmoose wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:57 pm

Max N wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:55 pm Not trying to start an argument, genuinely interested….
How can the 1m from the wall to the amp make a difference unless you also change the 10s of m in the wall?

Only two ways that I think of:
1/ If it can't handle the current demands (i.e. isn't fit for purpose) and
2/ If its putting some RFI etc. into other components or wires, in which case shielding may (may) be beneficial.

Agreed Scott. Although I guess it would be easy for manufacturers to show measurements or simulations, which afaik they don’t?

I admit I have done zero research into whether they do or not

IslandPink wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:16 pm I could suggest that another explanation is that some systems are more transparent than what you're listening to....

Yep. Nick's OBs certainly let more light through.

How would you measure/define transparency in audio?

Chris

chris661 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:40 pm

IslandPink wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:16 pm I could suggest that another explanation is that some systems are more transparent than what you're listening to....

Yep. Nick's OBs certainly let more light through.

Chris

I wouldn't measure it or define it. I'd just listen to it. My best guess is that it's low distortion at low signal levels. I feel increasingly isolated on this forum because i don't feel that anyone knows what I'm talking about any more, I must be a dinosaur of some sort.
It's about recreating real life from... LP's ( in particular..... though I give honorable exemption to Nick's DAC ) .
For example, I get the impression people think that the whole speaker cable issue is about not being ripped off. It's not. There are so many subtle things to be learned.
When we started this forum it was about HiFi and still inspired by the New York 1990's valve scene and Sound Practices.
Now i feel it's too much about 'Can I make something DIY that sounds OK ?' .
I think that Paul knows what I'm talking about, and maybe a couple of others.
Apologies to anyone else that i just rubbed up the wrong way, but I just feel really frustrated.

I agree with you mark, but while it may be a personal thing, I find transparency vital but I do want/need to measure and understand it. If I don't do that then replicating it consistently becomes dogma and chance. While It may be a fault on my part I can't help think the USA thing on the 90's may well have started with truth in mind it quickly was hijacked by those who wanted to commercialise it and I think the true believers took a backseat or were thrown from the bus entirely. I can feel and understand your frustration but most are into this as a hobby and that's fine but hobbies are for fun so you can't blame people for not wanting/needing to do the work. Work is not fun. If it is, it's not work. Typing this on a phone late at night is not the best medium for this conversation. Ali and Andrew at shows this year have heard more of my current thinking on this topic and while I generally am with you on this Mark you can't feel bad that not everyone has your set of goals or aspirations. In fact maybe if you can keep the faith without fellow travelers it may be validation that it's your own truth. Late night witter and I am knackered after a day driving around Oulton so maybe I said more than it needs. But there you go.

IslandPink wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:53 am I wouldn't measure it or define it. I'd just listen to it. My best guess is that it's low distortion at low signal levels. I feel increasingly isolated on this forum because i don't feel that anyone knows what I'm talking about any more, I must be a dinosaur of some sort.
It's about recreating real life from... LP's ( in particular..... though I give honorable exemption to Nick's DAC ) .
For example, I get the impression people think that the whole speaker cable issue is about not being ripped off. It's not. There are so many subtle things to be learned.
When we started this forum it was about HiFi and still inspired by the New York 1990's valve scene and Sound Practices.
Now i feel it's too much about 'Can I make something DIY that sounds OK ?' .
I think that Paul knows what I'm talking about, and maybe a couple of others.
Apologies to anyone else that i just rubbed up the wrong way, but I just feel really frustrated.

on the money

Max N wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:12 pm Agreed Scott. Although I guess it would be easy for manufacturers to show measurements or simulations, which afaik they don’t?

Not to the best of my knowledge, although I haven't looked around all that much recently. In fairness, both would be to a point circumstance dependent -especially noise, since potential effects are elsewhere rather than in the mains lead itself. I suppose they could show the effectiveness of any shielding present, but that's all it would show -not necessarily whether it will have any advantages in a given situation.

IslandPink wrote: When we started this forum it was about HiFi and still inspired by the New York 1990's valve scene and Sound Practices.

yeah I well remember the solid state bashing and the bogoted understanding of what constitutes hifi.

IslandPink wrote: Now i feel it's too much about 'Can I make something DIY that sounds OK ?'

does this mean I'm on the wrong forum?

but seriously...

I'm with Max on this one, in respect of his highlighting the quality of the cable that precedes the foo. I remember discussing the mega expensive speaker cable with someone back in the day, when I pointed out that the cable between the amp and the speaker cost x and the cable inside the speaker cabinet cost peanuts, then what exactly is what. At best all that can be deduced is that the foo cable works well with the speaker in question, not necessarily with other speakers.

I think there is a danger of looking at this as a binary choice. Either all cable effects are true or they are all false. And I think manufacturers play on this thinking. Just because we have found something matters in the context of our system doesn't mean every bullshit pseudoscience claim someone makes about a 10k mains cable is also true. Or for that matter false.

And to Marks point. Just because we may have been in the same/similar place 15 years ago is no reason to assume that every path from that point will take the same route or even go in the same overall direction. Things change, people change, priority change. The difference between the end point of two vectors is the result of both vectors. You don't move the origin to negate one vector even though it may seem from the end of both vectors that that is what has happened.