A Mains Cable Story

[Ant]

I wouldn't measure it or define it. I'd just listen to it. My best guess is that it's low distortion at low signal levels. I feel increasingly isolated on this forum because i don't feel that anyone knows what I'm talking about any more, I must be a dinosaur of some sort.
It's about recreating real life from... LP's ( in particular..... though I give honorable exemption to Nick's DAC ) .
For example, I get the impression people think that the whole speaker cable issue is about not being ripped off. It's not. There are so many subtle things to be learned.
When we started this forum it was about HiFi and still inspired by the New York 1990's valve scene and Sound Practices.
Now i feel it's too much about 'Can I make something DIY that sounds OK ?' .
I think that Paul knows what I'm talking about, and maybe a couple of others.
Apologies to anyone else that i just rubbed up the wrong way, but I just feel really frustrated.

For me mark it is about getting lps to sound as 'real' as i can, but it is also about not being ripped off.
I went to to rediculous lengths and through complete frustration to get that arm to sound 'right' so that the lps sound real by my defenition of real, but i also think that cables and all the vitriol and cobblers around them are not worth my time and investment.
I dont have access to expensive cables, mains cables, audiophile fuses, any of that stuff, and dont have any intention of going down that path even though i acknowledge that cables do make a difference.
The way i think is geared towards wanting to know why the engineering does what it does to the sq of a turntable/arm combination and is very blinkered, im not particularly interested in other aspects such as digital or amps any more. I long since resigned myself to the fact that i cant build a good amp which is why i havent built one in years.
I have a load of odd ways of thinking to be honest, and for some aspects of this hobby the enthusiasm is simply not there. cables are an example of this for me personally.
I also sometimes feel abit out of touch with forums because there are few people who really care about vinyl any more lately so i feel im talking to a brick wall half the time so alot of things ive done dont make it onto forums
I do alot of talking to brick walls

[Nick]

When we started this forum it was about HiFi and still inspired by the New York 1990's valve scene and Sound Practices.

Well, to be a little more accurate when I stared this place it was a reaction to the extra rules that the then owner was placing on the WAD forum. I agree at that time the thing that seemed to make sense was that 1990 valve scene (and it was presented as a counter to the mainstream industry as we though it was). It was very easy to make solid state the villain of the story (sorry Ed). But at least for me after a year or so of looking into this I found it was wanting, and didn't answer some of my questions and also didn't provide what I was wanting to hear from my audio system (at least as I wasn't prepared to commit to the unobtainable parts that has been blessed by the clergy, or wear the hair shirt some of the practices made holy). Generally I found it all too cultist and not open to analysts. There was some truths to be found in it but also a lot of stuff that made no sense to me (then or now).

I would point to the tag line I applied to the forum "The place to discuss anything involving sound". Thats it, that all it is, or was, there is no other "about" to my mind than what the people here want to talk about. And its not always sound, so I think there was never an "about".

[Max N]

With hindsight, and speaking for myself, you are on the money Mark. My DIY efforts were about getting something to sound OK, and then convincing myself it sounded better than it did, putting it in a case and calling it done. And then after a while, not listening to it anymore (although that was also partly due to incompatibility of valve amps to children, then cats, then grand children).

I’ve learnt a few really important things from this forum, but it’s taken a long time for those things to sink in, and I still find myself repeating mistakes.

Firstly, from Mark (particularly his epic speaker odyssey), I’ve learnt that getting something to sound good is far from easy, and it can take a long time. I’ve been documenting my current project for a couple of years, but the roots of that project go back further. Mark, I feel that your efforts ‘allowed’ me to keep trying things, and not rush into putting things into a case and calling it finished until it sounds good enough to be worthwhile, without beating myself up about it.

From Nick, I’ve learnt to question my prejudices and dogma, although this is a trap I still fall into. Also, that for me AB testing doesn’t work particularly well. Also, try to identify what I don’t like about the sound and then think about how to remedy it. Sometimes I can train myself to identify the symptom reliably, and then AB testing of a potential solution can work. But as the defects become more subtle, I sometimes have to spend weeks living with a change before deciding whether I’ve moved forwards or backwards or sideways.

There are loads of other examples, and also so many times when individuals on here have helped me with specific queries.

For years now I have avoided all other audio forums because the signal to noise ratio is so low.

So thanks Mark, thanks Nick, thanks to all of you.

[IslandPink]

Yeh sorry my posting was a bit melodramatic last night.
To sum up my gripes in a more sober fashion -
Difficulty in discussing aspects like transparency and tonal colour, which are really key for me.
I'm not seeing much discussion about aspects of the music and how it's affected and hopefully improved by what people are building.

Thanks for your latest comments Max.
I'll go back and look at some more when i feel a bit less embarrassed !

[chris661]

It's about recreating real life
<snip>
Apologies to anyone else that i just rubbed up the wrong way, but I just feel really frustrated.

Mark,

I think it's here that our ideologies are fundamentally different.

Here's the crux: I gave up chasing "HiFi" a while ago. In my opinion, it simply doesn't exist. Further, I don't want it.


As a result, if I have a stereo which:
- Covers 20Hz-20kHz within a few dB of flat
- Gets usefully loud without complaining
- Is easy to use

I'm happy.


Following that, my amp is an AVR, because it has the I/O, DSP and power that I require. The speakers are the ones you've seen at Owston, which sit happily at 0.02% THD above 1kHz at sensible listening levels. The woofers (below 1kHz) are at more like 0.5% THD, and I sometimes think about upgrading those.

The stereo gets used for hours every day, whether for music or streaming movies or episodes. It ticks all of my boxes, and I'm happy with the results.

I'll start a new thread about my thoughts on HiFi, but suffice to say that I've spent enough time around live music to know that I don't want it in my living room.

Chris

[Cressy Snr]

….I'll start a new thread about my thoughts on HiFi, but suffice to say that I've spent enough time around live music to know that I don't want it in my living room.

Chris

Sound of nail being hit squarely on head

[IslandPink]

Maybe my post last night was me channeling Romy's dislike of the DIY Audio forums.
My harking back to Sound Practices was not so much about promoting valve amps more ( though that was a big thing for me at that time ) but rather the attitude of experimentation and enthusiasm about the sound and music.
The kind of thing that annoys me about DIY Audio, and gets my hackles up when i see it on here, is someone raising a subject for investigation, but then being told "You do know that there's no scientific basis for that" or "How are you going to measure that".

[Nick]

The kind of thing that annoys me about DIY Audio, and gets my hackles up when i see it on here, is someone raising a subject for investigation, but then being told "You do know that there's no scientific basis for that" or "How are you going to measure that".

The problem is that we know that people can and do believe all sorts of things, much of which is clearly false and most of the rest has no evidence. With that in mind if one makes a claim that on the face of it seems unlikely, then its not unreasonable that you be asked to provide some evidence. As far as I know the only reliable method we have of discerning truth is science, and the before something can be proved to be true it needs first to be determined if it exists, so that requires some form of measurement.

Now none of the above is required if you are happy believing something yourself, nothing is required, its only when you wish to have a conversation about it with others that the additional requirements may get involved.

If you are aware of a alternative method of determining truth I would be happy to consider it.

Maybe my post last night was me channeling Romy's dislike of the DIY Audio forums.

So let me be sure about this, you are annoyed on behalf of someone who doesn't post here about that other persons opinion of a forum that isn't this one?

BTW, I also have very little time for DIY Audio, may not be for the same reason, or it may be, I don't know.

[shane]

As far as I know the only reliable method we have of discerning truth is science, and before something can be proved to be true it needs first to be determined if it exists, so that requires some form of measurement.

Always assuming we have the wherewithal to measure it.

[Nick]

As far as I know the only reliable method we have of discerning truth is science, and before something can be proved to be true it needs first to be determined if it exists, so that requires some form of measurement.

Always assuming we have the wherewithal to measure it.

Yes that's true, but can you think of a different way of showing that something exists?

However, we don't have to do anything, that work should have been made by the person making the claim before they made the claim.

[IslandPink]

I think your aims , eg. in terms of proof or 'showing that something exists' are loftier than mine.
I'm surprised at your emphasis here, given that you praised my speaker thread a while back as being exemplary in some way. It seems to me that a large part of it was about was trying things out and then listening. Even when I did simulate and design a part of it, the proof was only ever if it met my aims when i listened to music. I doubt whether i proved very much to anyone, or convinced any skeptics to the extent they would follow me. I think the loftiest ambition I had was that the end result would impress someone enough to go back and look at the detail to use somehow themselves.
I understand what you are saying about science, which I use and accept every day in my day job, but wouldn't you say that a big primary step in much scientific progress is an accident that happens, or the hunch that you have ? ; doesn't that come before the controlled experiment ?

[shane]

I can’t think of a better way of proving that something exists than by measuring it, but I think it’s possible to demonstrate the probable existence of something before we are able to provide proof by measurement, and to obtain agreement of its existence by demonstration.

The problem with HiFi of course is it’s subjectiveness. Two people listening to the same thing don’t necessarily hear the same thing.

[IslandPink]

So let me be sure about this, you are annoyed on behalf of someone who doesn't post here about that other persons opinion of a forum that isn't this one?

I'm sure you can guess where my tongue was situated when i wrote that ?

[Nick]

I'm surprised at your emphasis here, given that you praised my speaker thread a while back as being exemplary in some way. It seems to me that a large part of it was about was trying things out and then listening.

I did and do praise it, at least in part as it exemplifies your doggedness and determination and for most of the time your self belief. However what differs is that you have not been then taking your experience and using that to convince others that they should follow your work. I know from the work you did with Andrew and the heater supply that your hearing is able to reliably show effects that without that demonstration would have remained unknown or open to doubt. I believe you when you say you believe you can hear things and that you are finding correlation in part with measurement. I don't know for certain if what you believe is true, but I am willing to believe that you believe it is. Its when it progresses beyond a single persons journey and started to form a credo of sorts, that's when I feel I require extra proof. You are not doing it in the speaker thread, so its not an issue to me.

Its likely that the folk on DiyAudio are asking for extra evidence from you as they don't know you as well and they may well have their own belief's that your views oppose, or at least rub up against.

but wouldn't you say that a big primary step in much scientific progress is an accident that happens, or the hunch that you have ? ; doesn't that come before the controlled experiment

Yes, of course, but as you know better that I do that before the creation of the controlled experiment the hunch or observation is just that, a hunch or observation.

Yes, my views have changed a little (maybe a lot) over time, but I don't believe I am applying any requirement on others that I have not applied to myself. That may be false, and I would be happy to defend that statement, and I may be wrong.

[Nick]

So let me be sure about this, you are annoyed on behalf of someone who doesn't post here about that other persons opinion of a forum that isn't this one?

I'm sure you can guess where my tongue was situated when i wrote that ?

Yes, and by the way I phrased my response I hope you believe the same.