audio-talk

Yes, OK, & suppose the listening to a load of other decks comes under the 'perform additional experiments'.
I think it was DQ who was making less sense. Perhaps deliberately.

I think we were both making the same point.

I think you're right, and I've been thinking in the last half hour a fair bit about how my brain works differently from yours. I'm rubbish at writing software for instance. When I write a technical report, or am given some problem with optics on test, I tend to go in with my brain thinking simultaneously on several issues at once. Quite often I can suss the problem quickly, but if I don't, I have to slow down and force myself to go through in a rigorous way. Writing a report, I usually have a rough outline of bullet points to start, but my work then proceeds with a real scattergun approach, I just grab whatever sub-topic seems interesting or easy, and do that first, then jump to whatever else grabs me.

An issue with testing the drives would be that in order to get a set of results that make sense the plinths and bearings and platters would need to be as close to identical as possible initially to get a baseline. For a dd and belt drive that wouldnt be too hard, the dd motor and platter would be used, a belt and motor could be bodged in to power it in belt drive mode. That would be easy enough. Grafting an idler mechanism in there would be a different barrel of monkeys.

So one modular plinth that could accommodate the 3 different drives without modification to remove that part as a variable. The same platter that can be driven in 3 ways to remove that as a variable. Same arm and cart is no issue either.

Working out how to make a test bed is a different matter.

And that would be before you could even start to look at what to measure

Daniel Quinn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:25 pm

It seems to me much of explanation in hifi is not worthy and is simply a waste of time .

Might as well close the forum down then.

You need to look at some other UK forums where folk just buy and sell kit all the time without any clear goals.

That’s why I only have 2 forums that I frequent.. this and DIYA.

Back on the topic of the turntable, could Ant, chock the suspension so it was effectively suspensionless. That would remove one variable from the equation. Then it’s just the drive system, assuming don’t think the arm contributes to the issue. Personally I find the new SME’s boring CD like, maybe because they have got rid of all the distortion we like

In hifi there are so many variables in assessing sound quality I don’t think the hobbist can move beyond correlation to causation.

Correlation as a nasty confusing you and measurements lead you down a blind alley .

You can either make it your life’s work or you can listen and quickly decide. You may even end up at the same place.

You can of course remain at the level of correlation and use rehtoric to convince others it is actually causation

Daniel Quinn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:44 am In hifi there are so many variables in assessing sound quality I don’t think the hobbist can move beyond correlation to causation.

imo that's far too blanket a statement.

Isn't it very easy to stick a cap in a circuit and say that it caused the change in frequency response. There is also a correlation between the value of the cap and the quantity of the change. Maybe I've misunderstood the discussion.

As DQ is fond of taking issue with semantics and less than precisely constructed sentences(the language police may not be necessary in this 'audio for all levels of understanding'), perhaps he'd elaborate on hobbist, and why the hobbist can't discover the same things as a lab scientist.

I mention only because I'm in the middle of trying to balance a new speaker and I've padded the tweeter down by 3db and it seems to have slightly changed the stage. I am working on the correlation while I'm pretty sure of the cause.

ed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:39 am
I mention only because I'm in the middle of trying to balance a new speaker and I've padded the tweeter down by 3db and it seems to have slightly changed the stage. I am working on the correlation while I'm pretty sure of the cause.

‘Nah Ed! ……Sorry sunshine I don’t buy it! Here’s what I think happened:
You increased the resistor value slightly so your expectation bias expected a change, your confirmation bias ‘eard one!
If you didn’t measure it, it didn’t happen.’
‘ Ah but we all know measurements mean nothing and tell us even less sarge!’
‘Alright detective constable, I’m doin’ this interview, you just take the notes son, there’s a good lad. So I’ll arsk you again! What really happened in that room with them speakers chummy? You either start tellin’ us the truth or I’ll charge you with wastin’ police time! …Shall we start from the beginnin?’eh?’

wow I wish my experience of hifi assessment was limited to the evalauation of a single item.


You are deliberately simplifying things in order to show how clever you are , I suppose its better than accepting you are engaged in convincing people correlation is in fact causation.


embrace correlation it will set you free

Shut it Carter!

Been listening to the oracle on and off over the past 2 days and it seems to have settled nicely. The speed stability has firmed up abit with some hours on the motor which hadnt run in a long time (cleaned and oiled it) and bearing (again cleaned and oiled as it was bone dry) the 309 arm feels freer for abit of use. Again hadnt been used in a long time.

The sound has sort of tightened itself up and the irritating bouncy belt drive traits have diminished abit. The vagueness is still there, the bit of leading edge smear is still there, and the slightly diffuse imaging is still there but its better than it was.

Interestingly it is more enjoyable with stuff like deep purple than it is with stuff like pat metheny, where its qualities get in the way abit.
Crunchy 70s stuff and 80s pop seem to work well, that flow it has complements the music but tends to blur when it gets complex.
Simple minds once upon a time sounds really rather enjoyable, it bounces along nicely despite the drawbacks. My old inherited Lp12 but much less irritating springs (swidt) to mind. An lp12 without the screech.

The line on all the things she said, that was'You ffffought the fffight ttthho long, But thhhureneder ttho tthhemptation on the lp12, is actually 'you fought the fight so long, but surrender to temptation' on the oracle.

And im tapping my foot like a 1980s naim sales rep at a show holding up a sign saying 'buy a six pack of nap 250s, you know you want to'

It has something about it if you play the right stuff on it.
Is it 1985 in this room?

Shame it falls flat on its arse for me with other stuff because it is rather enjoyable with the right music.

wow I wish my experience of hifi assessment was limited to the evalauation of a single item.

But it can be, the example Ed gave was entirely valid. Its what you have to do if you want to get beyond "its all too complex, so I won't bother". Just because you decide not to play, says something about you not the thing itself.

I have an hunch complex matters can only ever be correlation .

Which is why I’m of the view in hifi one should merely listen . Theory, causation and explanation is not necessary in a solipsistic hobby .

Having said that I’m perfectly happy to read others who think they’ve got a casual explanation and not simply a correlation .