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#1 What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 2:47 pm
by Daniel Quinn
For 18 months I ran my speakers with a cap and inductor on the midrange .

Following my recent amp speaker fire , I fixed the speaker but this time I ran the bass and midrange without the x over and with series wiring .

I’m evaluating the speakers against each other at the moment . I’m favouring running without a x over .

What should I listen to/for to prove I’m an idiot for preferring sans x over?

#2 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 2:50 pm
by Nick
Maybe loud pure female vocals (Eva Cassidy, that sort of thing). That seems to me to hit the points where breakup can be heard.

#3 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:11 pm
by Daniel Quinn
I’ve got an Eva Cassidy album , I try it .

Break up is all I’m looking for in terms of negative things

#4 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:15 pm
by steve s
Nick wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:50 pm Maybe loud pure female vocals (Eva Cassidy, that sort of thing). That seems to me to hit the points where breakup can be heard.
That brings back fond memories of our 1st eggbrough meet..
I decided that if we all played a particular eva cassidy track we would be able to compare systems on an even footing

It actually worked a treat..

But there where a few amongst us who didn't like eva cassidy, for a variety of reasons, i hope they can smile looking back..
I can't play any eva cassidy now without thinking about that day
Good times..

But your right nick, powerfull clean dynamics are a good test

Also the track dear Heather by cohen is a track I use, and overloading /breakup quickly becomes apparent.

#5 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:55 pm
by JamesD
I would say that breakup is not the only thing to listen for...

I would listen for relative level changes and timbre changes through the overlapping region relative to each side of the overlapping region using male voice, female voice, solo grand piano and solo cello

But really if you are happy with how it sounds once you have lived with it for a month or two then that is all that matters. Voicing speakers is quite a personal thing unless you are after a commercial product - and even then it can be... remember Linn Kans!

#6 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:13 pm
by rowuk
I do not understand the aversion to crossovers. When well designed, they simply let drivers perform in their sweet spot instead of allowing the "out of useful band" garbage to become audible. Basically any naturally recorded instrument can show the deficits. The recordings that I use to voice my speakers probably would not help others as much as I am familiar with the acoustic spaces performed in as well as those playing the instruments.

#7 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 11:57 pm
by steve s
rowuk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:13 pm I do not understand the aversion to crossovers. When well designed, they simply let drivers perform in their sweet spot instead of allowing the "out of useful band" garbage to become audible. Basically any naturally recorded instrument can show the deficits. The recordings that I use to voice my speakers probably would not help others as much as I am familiar with the acoustic spaces performed in as well as those playing the instruments.
I can well understand your point of view, I went from full range to simple cross overs, and now not quite as simple
I can't say there's been any loss in performance.
But as ever different systems seem to react in different ways

#8 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 6:42 am
by chris661
Three things I can think of:

1 - Running the bass driver too high
2 - Running the mid too low
3 - Running the mid too high

1 might give you some raggedness in the midrange, depending on cone material, surround damping etc etc. There'll also be some beaming, meaning the off-axis response (and thus what's coming to you as reflected sound) will be different to on-axis.
2 will give you increased harmonic distortion in the low frequency range - more noticeable if you turn it up a bit. Be careful, though - depending on the driver, there's a risk you'll blow it.
3 might give you some raggedness in the upper mids/lower treble. Same as #1, but moved up an octave or two.


FWIW, my speakers got much better once I figured out how to do crossovers reasonably well. Keeping the drivers happy really does allow them to shine.
These days, I use driver combinations where complex crossovers are pretty much mandatory, and I'm very happy with the sound.

Chris

#9 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 1:58 pm
by Daniel Quinn
My aversion to x overs is simple . Side by side they don’t sound as good . If they did I keep them . Though simple x overs and good parts makes it closer.

When I fist experimented the difference between nothing and a cheap mission x over was staggering .

#10 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 4:18 pm
by chris661
The "cheap Mission" crossover - what were you using it for?

Sounds to me like you've used a bad one, possibly with the not-intended-for drivers, and decided it was rubbish.


Doing a crossover properly is non-trivial. Here are the steps:

- Measure the drivers in their intended baffles.
You'll need a selection of on- and off-axis response curves for optimising the crossover later.
You'll also need 3x measurements where the microphone stays in the same place, on the intended listening axis. Low-pass, high-pass, and both drivers operating together. This is important.
Impedance curves will also be required.

- Load up the curves into your favourite crossover simulator, and then use the 3x measurements from earlier to calculate the relative locations of the acoustic centres of the drivers. ie, the time offset. This is important because, when getting drivers to work together properly, you want good phase tracking through the crossover region. If your time offset is wrong, your phase is wrong. The simulated graphs might look great, but the results won't be good in reality.

- Design a crossover, paying attention to the on- and off-axis response curves from earlier. You want to optimise both.
Also take note of the distortion curve of the tweeter or midrange driver (whatever's getting a highpass filter) If the tweeter gets unhappy below 1kHz (for example), then you'll want to make sure <1kHz is strongly attenuated to keep the driver happy. You could do that with a shallow crossover starting high up, or a steeper crossover lower down.

- Build, test, listen. When designing a crossover, I try to keep some flexibility for the final voicing of the speaker so that it can suit different rooms and preferences. One listener I know prefers a slightly-declining on-axis response, while I prefer flat. With the right components in the right places, it's easy to tweak these things to personal preference.


That about covers it.

I would gently suggest that, if you haven't followed those steps, then you're unlikely to have heard the best that crossovers have to offer. I'll be bringing at least one pair of speakers designed in this way to Owston. Have a listen before looking at the crossover.

All the best,
Chris

#11 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 7:30 pm
by Daniel Quinn
I would respectfully suggest your ways are anathema to me .

My way . Wire up the parts . Listen. Decide thier shit repeat more than 100 times. All shit. Some bloke on internet says ditch the passive x over and wire in series. Bloody hell that’s good.

10 years and a dozen model later the above method still works

#12 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 10:27 pm
by pre65
Daniel Quinn wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:30 pm I would respectfully suggest your ways are anathema to me .

My way . Wire up the parts . Listen. Decide thier shit repeat more than 100 times. All shit. Some bloke on internet says ditch the passive x over and wire in series. Bloody hell that’s good.

10 years and a dozen model later the above method still works
It's your ears that must decide.

Just out of interest, have any other hi-fi aficionados listened to your current system ?

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#13 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 11:46 pm
by Nick
It's your ears that must decide.
Great catchphrase, but exactly what does it mean?

Chris did say "Build, test, listen" but there was all the work before that as well. If you ignore you just go in circles.

I think the problem is that for any combination of drivers in a box there are maybe 10,000 different crossovers you could try, and only one of them will be the best one. The chances are 95% of those crossovers will be worst than no crossover. The chance of finding one of the 5% by random chance is small, so its likely that no crossover will be better than most you tried. The chance of finding the 1 in 10,000 by chance is as close to 0 as doesn't matter.

#14 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:04 am
by pre65
Nick wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:46 pm
It's your ears that must decide.
Great catchphrase, but exactly what does it mean?

Just what it says really.

I read that Dennis has "played around" with speakers for a while, and as a result of what he has heard, has decided that his crossover-less mods sound best, to him.

He modded, listened, and what he heard ( with his ears ) led him to form his opinion.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Dennis is not open to any suggestions re crossovers and your last post is not likely to make him alter his point of view, even though, to me, it makes great sense.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink springs to mind.



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#15 Re: What should I hear?

Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:24 am
by Daniel Quinn
I love the way you decide what I think . Saves me a job