What should we do about rising energy prices?

[vinylnvalves]

V n V, don’t be too pessimistic about new boiler, I very seldom have to fix an open vent heat only regular boiler, different names for same thing as youre erm… “energy saver” rather miss named!

My potterton version of original baxi duotec factory date 2005, As an engineer I strip and clean old school every year and set electrode gap. Never needed a set of electrodes. Only ever broke down once, about 3 years ago: secondhand fan off eBay procured £30. Run perfect since. Flue tests we do on it never reveal any tinkering required as it’s not just in tolerance at each service but by a multiple of 10 better than the National standards.

I think more people have those experiences than just me.

My only experience with modern boilers is the Baxi the mother in law has, if it wasnt on a service contract it would have been thrown away, it’s like triggers broom, it’s about 8 years old and has had 2 fans, 1 igniter and a new pcb so far. Which is a joke really, especially when they used to have the sales pitch, “ you never go back to a Baxi”. My old glow worm sees a fluebrush every couple of years, and that’s it. Getting a few quotes, it’s whether it’s worth the extra cash for the ATAG over say a Bosch - as anything other than a stainless or cast iron heat exchanger seems wrong to me. I suppose a system boiler sees less strain than a combi, so maybe I am worrying unnecessarily.

[Paul Barker]

Heat only boilers not system boiler are the most reliable modern boilers. Except the Logic Heat, or any Logic type avoid. Very popular to the 99% of poorly skilled gas registered individuals. The industry is full of idiots not servicing old school strip and clean. Get a spy cam watch the so called “service” if person takes main heat engine in half and puts something in it to clean with and or pours kettle water in or washing soda or bicarbonate. Yes you had a service. If he cleans and gaps electrodes you had a service. If he only puts a probe in you’ve only had an inspection! Most firms only inspect!

[Paul Barker]

Servicing a Vaillant

[Paul Barker]

Servicing a Worcester compact I installed 7 years ago, strip and clean it every year. First part new electrodes, but hadn’t failed. Just preventative maintenance. The little orange tab in the solution is a 12” hacksaw blade to get down fins and mechanically aid cleaning. Different boilers different methods most engineers today do non of this. What they do I call a “point and go” inspection!

[Paul Barker]

The mass produced split unit air source heat pumps sold into the domestic sector, are built so they cant be worked on down to this level, same has happened in domestic appliances. Bot no mechanical object will have a long life if you cant strip and clean it. All they do with the air source units is clean the filter.

I was trained in heat pumps in the days all the component parts were serviceable. As I said the split unit they put in for domestic cant be accessed for this type of service. Its buy it use it sling it buy another. Good luck when youre cop and youre fit or whatever insenstive youre given at the time, and you have to buy another one before even with the insentives its died because it not made repairable down to the component level.

It was only 30 years ago I had a business in London renting out washing machines. Only 30 years ago washing machines were fully repairable. Most of the time it needed a clean especially the “pressure chamber” which conveys to a pressure senser the pressure of water in the drum, to allow the motor to spin since it then knows the drum has drained sufficient. after about five years, new brishes as majority were brush motors. Aristons were induction motore and their motors never required anything and never died. But induction motors are less powerful so spin speeds budget to say the least. Hotpoints required drum bearings after 5 years, hoover could go 10 years. AEG, Bosch, Zanussi vertually bullet proof, never required drum bearings or brushes up to 20 years. Anything pressed to gether in China today, badged with a good old British name like “Bush”. But deliberately made disposable. Parts like drum bearings cant be changed without cutting parts of case out, and patching them back in afterwards. Usually fail after about a year, much faster failure rate in mechanical things made A cheaply B given a respected British name C made deliberately obstructive to old school maintenance.

Dont expect reliability going forward. The ewhole green age da has completely ignored carbon footprint of making things so badly they have to be made again, and again, and again.

[Paul Barker]

Worcester are now making their gas boilers very easily convertable to Hydrogen. Perhaps one day like when they converted the whole of UK from Town Gas (Coal Gas) to Natural Gas (Methane). One option for ecology is converrt gas Grid to Hydrogen. The heating appliances wouldnt have to change much and the skills are pre-existing. Worcester are now saying all their models going forward are being made for an easy change over, in some cases, just an injector to change, which is a brass disc with a hole in it, about a fiver. But as always Gas Safe registered would have to do it.

We in the trade though know hydrogen cant be put into the gas grid as it stands. Very small molecules compared to methane, and we have a very leaky network which the suppliers put a sticky substance in like the gum you put from an aerosol can in youre tyre. Governments rediculous timings dont allow for the Gas grid to be converted in time.

I wander if Ali has any comments on the electricity Grid. We gas fitters when talking among ourselves dont think Electricity grid can take the number of heat pumps or electric cars. Heat pumps have a very high starting load. Such a load that industry arent allowed more than a set number of starts every 24 hours. This will come to the domestic sector with heat pumps, and the grid will get the same industrial polution we audiophiles complain of, now the domestic sector will corrupt the phase angles amd the current shifts in phase. Industry have to build equipment to equalise to a tolerance he ce why the cheap polyprop caps we benefit from.

Non of that is even vaguely possible with the grid as it exists today.

How are you going to feel when you run over a boy under eleven in youre electric car. The greatest cause of death in a boy under 11 is road accident. Ghostly quiet cars will make a spike in those figures and they wont come down anytime. Unless you make a mandatory level of noise in built up areas i. the interests of road safety.

The list is endless, the government is just playing politics and know the truth but never tell you it.

[Paul Barker]

Oh by the way there is a little hydrogen being aded to methane in the grid, its going to go a bit like hybrid cars at first where a level of hydrogen is mixed with methane and over time more hydrogen %. But it will be very lossy, as the tiny moleculed hydrogen will leak out on its way to youre house. Its a flag waving excercise to try and hold people back from supergluing the,selves to the M25.

[Paul Barker]

oh yes the cop in winter is mint for gshp, I wasnt explicit enough. But majoriy population. ant afford it or dont have a location for it, not even a bore hole. Its a non starter for the masses. And yes permafrost. Probably no problem to you as you probably have enough land. I live in town very few properties could even have a bore hole, let alone afford it’s implementation. The future is going to be unaffordable and cold for the majority of uk citizens..In such a scenario, the poor will have to buy electric heating garments they plug in to a network in their house. They could give a plug in coat to their visitors.

When I visited Captain Maurice Seddon in the ‘80’s he was already living that way in Windsor, off grid. He had a windmil and batteries. He sold heated clothing to despatch riders and fixed the radios we used. He had been Captain in Royal Engineers. Ahead of his time. I stayed the night twice, we were good friends, as Ive been interested in ecoloy since the ‘70’s. He gave you an overgarment to put on and there were plug ins in every room.

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian ... n-obituary

[vinylnvalves]

Thanks for all that info Paul. Do you have any experience of ATAG boilers?

It interesting how you mentioned the network may not be capable of transporting hydrogen. I worked for BG in the 80’s - was involved with pipeline integrity and deaths due to gas leaks. There was a case of a house in the north west which had a leak with the explosion killing 2 people. The investigation showed they had been doing up the kitchen and had stripped some paint back off the pipes, which subsequently leaked. I went in with a safety proposal that the gas leak tests were done under pressure so that things like paint sealing holes would be picked up. I got a proper bollocking off my manager he told me I was stupid as half the houses in the country would fail, and they couldn’t cope with that. At the same time my uncles were pressure testing all commercial installations they did, especially in steel pipe, so go figure.

I think I am concluding that we have no real alternative to gas in the UK. So will be fitting a new boiler, along side adding some secondary glazing to my existing double glazed windows to reduce the losses from our stupidly big windows downstairs.
On the electric front.. I got rid of those inefficient valve amps a few years ago... so am green on that front.

[andrew Ivimey]

HM got has just said this and that....

I find that wearing lots of layers and a hat( very important) and getting drunk works. Forget the bath or a shower, allow a little heat in the morning and scrub up. Big breakfast, enjoy and welcome the sun if. Be productive, walk or cycle but come 3-30pm open a bottle, plan a hot evening meal, loud music, eT, hug someone and have an early night...summer is a coming in... or spend oaks of money.

Layla- Derek and, has just come on....

Live in the past, forget your nose, wrap a blanket round your legs .

Could be worse

[Cressy Snr]

Deleted.
Getting mad at a gas ring graphic?
Sod it. Media blackout is on nevertheless.

[Paul Barker]

Thanks for all that info Paul. Do you have any experience of ATAG boilers?

It interesting how you mentioned the network may not be capable of transporting hydrogen. I worked for BG in the 80’s - was involved with pipeline integrity and deaths due to gas leaks. There was a case of a house in the north west which had a leak with the explosion killing 2 people. The investigation showed they had been doing up the kitchen and had stripped some paint back off the pipes, which subsequently leaked. I went in with a safety proposal that the gas leak tests were done under pressure so that things like paint sealing holes would be picked up. I got a proper bollocking off my manager he told me I was stupid as half the houses in the country would fail, and they couldn’t cope with that. At the same time my uncles were pressure testing all commercial installations they did, especially in steel pipe, so go figure.

I think I am concluding that we have no real alternative to gas in the UK. So will be fitting a new boiler, along side adding some secondary glazing to my existing double glazed windows to reduce the losses from our stupidly big windows downstairs.
On the electric front.. I got rid of those inefficient valve amps a few years ago... so am green on that front.

Atag boilers, yes when im in work my main function is breakdown repairs. Atag’s seldom fail and the models that fail are the combis, as with all boiler manufacturers except Ideal, all versions of the logic fail, and their heat only fails far more than any other manufacturer’s heat only. Vertually all other manufacturers, if you fit a heat only there will never be a claim on the warrantie, and I will seldome attend them either. My repair career was started by Alhpa Innovation, at that time their heat only boiler, even as the repair engineer for all this area and inland as far as Pately Bridge, I never on e had a warrantie call to a heat only boiler.

There are two sides to every question. So is therre a negative about Atag. Yes there is, the combi has too viscious monitoring of pressure and creates a rod for its back, as such is the feature of any system boiler or combi that users fekc up constanty, some boilers and main one is Worcester, have made this ok, however abused the worcesters are by running 6 months on really low water pressure they dont flinch, and carry on working from year to year with zero callouts under this type of common abuse by users. Whereas atag sealed system and combi boilers are the most fickle in this domain of any boiler design.

Other problem is uk merchants dont stock Atag spares. Atag’s point on this is you ring them, they send out the parts. If boilers under warrantie, free of charge. That system has always worked for me, but I would prefer if they used the normal lines of supply as every other manufacturer. It is smoother and often same day. Atag’s is buffered by delivery.

[Paul Barker]

As a general note the pictures ive shown are of a standard strip and clean service which is the old way of servicing boilers. As a repair engineer I service a boiler in a way that we wont be called out to it later in the year. I have a vested interest in reliability as I am judged on breakdown figures. But I take pride in doing the job “right”, pride is wrong word but taking pride in youre work is a English Phrase. There isnt any pride in me about the matter, as in the flawed human emotional pride, puffed out chest pride. IBetter description, I get personal reward as a boiler Ive serviced or repaired goes on a year to the next service without a call out.

BUT the industry stamdard today, is no strip and clean, they vertually all do what I call a “point and go service” Because we now have flue gas analysers, run boiler at max and at min, with analyser in flue, compare result to Manufacturers parameters. Note figures, go out the door like greased lghtning and kerching, one service done, nine more to do. Meanwhile the super rich heating industry owners and shareholders rub their hands together with glee. But the user has had nothing good done, nothing worth the contract they pay for.

The only way to know youre getting a actual service, or a strip and clean service is to find an independent old guy like me. All firms employees are slaves of super rich on a treadmill. Not equiped to strip and clean every boiler, in the sense they arent from the strip and clean era, and their employers drive them to work fast every minute, always on their back.

I imagine its the same in a lot of other industries.

[vinylnvalves]

So the main conclusion is a good service engineer is more important than the boiler. That’s the big challenge as most of the heating engineers around us, come with a computer to plug in, to tell you what’s wrong. Need to find a guy who deals with the commercial side as they generally are more experienced.
Thanks for your opinion on ATAG, I have noticed that Viessmann have stainless steel heat exchangers - will have to ask around to understand how reliable they are, don’t have the 14 year warranty the ATAG have though.

[steve s]

I’ve had it. A media blackout is now in force. My mental health is too precious to squander on this shit!

That made me smile Steve, but to be honest I make a point of not watching any news programmes.
I hear snippets from lesley and what I read on here.. but it boils me up, so feel I'm better not listening or knowing, burying my head... yes, do I care.. no !


Back on topic, the only things that will keep your bills low is not to use to much of anything through a meter.

Having owned 11 houses, good insulation and unobstructed large south facing windows on your living rooms makes the most of nature.
Smaller rooms take less heating
And if log have access to wood.. log burners.

Sounds simple..? If only