What should we do about rising energy prices?

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vinylnvalves
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#1 What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by vinylnvalves »

With the reality of gas prices doubling over the year to come, I have been wondering what I should do regarding my existing heating system. I have an old Glow-worm Space saver boiler in the garage, which is over 50 years old. I have never been able to financially justify changing it until now, a £500 per annum saving based on efficiency would make it worthwhile, and even now the annual maintenance costs, of consumables such as fans of a new condensing boiler may
erode any benefit.
The governments lack of a cohesive future energy strategy makes it difficult to decide, whether to stay with gas or change to a electric powered heating system such as a GSHP or an ASHP. If the price of electric wasn’t increasing equally with gas (no reason it should as only 33% is generated from fossil fuels) the decision may be simpler.

It would be interesting to know what others have done, I know Jack has a GSHP. Or if individuals have a knowledge of the country’s energy strategy. The only thing I have heard is that when we all have smart meters the electric will be on a variable tariff with the price increasing in the early evening to try to make us even out our usage through out the day.

I have been wondering about a hybrid system, using a smaller gas boiler along side a ASHP, so when the outside air temp is below 8 degs the gas boiler tops up the temperature so I can use my existing radiators etc. I already have a hot water tank which has a solar coil.

Engineering sensible energy storage systems- such as state change etc which could store energy from the summer to use in the winter haven’t really developed yet for domestic use. I suppose the risk of dumping 8MW of heat all at once into domestic dwelling is difficult to mitigate.
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#2 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Neal »

Will be interested to see what Paul or Nick has to say, we are in a similar position with our old boiler and given the price hike in April now maybe a good time to replace it….
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Paul Barker
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#3 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Paul Barker »

I have no idea, so many impossible targets I have no idea how the future will unfold, but the govenment edicts are youre problem. If they left us all alone, no problem. But they wont. I can only see a future where the poor are much poorer, and the working poor aswell.

I have no crystal ball.

Theres a lot of hopeful people around believing the government, but those people arent industry savey.

main problem is energy prices, came at wrong time.

gut reaction though is update youre gas boiler. The cop of gshp and ashp is abismal in cold weather, using 1kw of electricity to provide 1kw of heat. May aswel use hydrocarbons while you can and top up with fan heaters. Save the cost of a hugely expensive conversion to heat pump technology which will never pay for itself.
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe." – Albert Einstein
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jack
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#4 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by jack »

Paul Barker wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:30 pm The cop of gshp and ashp is abismal in cold weather, using 1kw of electricity to provide 1kw of heat.
That's a sweeping statement - have you any reference for that because it's certainly not what we see.

The system we use (which is a pretty standard one) is a GSHP from IVT - originally Swedish (now owned by Bosch) - in Sweden some 30+% of properties use GSHPs with great success - typically with extremely low outdoor temperatures, the CoP can drop to 3 or thereabouts, but in the UK, the outdoor temperature rarely drops below 0C for any length of time...

Also, for a GSHP, the coils are buried a metre or more down where the ground temperature doesn't fluctuate that much - a cold frosty night makes very little difference to the temperature round the coils.

I agree that the CoP of ASHPs can drop (to around 1.5 I understand), but GSHPs are largely isolated from air temperature changes and the ground temperature at the coil depth is typically 10-12C all year round

One metric that is more useful is the Seasonal CoP (SCoP) which is pretty static for GSHPs and varies quite a lot for ASHPs.
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vinylnvalves
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#5 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by vinylnvalves »

My cousin who designs commercial buildings heating systems, warned me that for GSHP’s you can see a drop in performance over 10 years if not on a sunny aspect as the ground cools down permanently . Commercially it not an issue as they just cool down the buildings and heat up the ground in the summer but an added cost which will affect the COP making it even less attractive.

I cannot see GSHP’s as being economy viable- even with the pay in tariff which runs out in March, I calculated wouldn’t recoup the costs of the £25k it was going to cost over the 7 years of the tariff.

I have been looking at storage batteries, and adding an extra array onto my PV system, and using the 12kw of stored electric to power an ASHP. However with the COP being so low, as Paul says putting some electric heater mats under carpets may be better.

I am think depending on the installation costs of a new boiler, investing in an ATAG regular boiler is probably the most sensible option. My cousin has recommended looking at ACW systems where you heat an inner cylinder hotter, but I think a thermal store would be a more sensible approach.
My big challenge is my “go to” heating engineer who used to work for the family firm has retired, so finding a new good one is going to be fun. ( Uncles and grandfather were plumbers... I did help out getting on for 40 years ago, when you were Corgi registered and when copper and steel pipes were the only options)
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Paul Barker
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#6 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Paul Barker »

Atag good choice.

I don’t like thermal stores. Sludge forms very fast in them. Just a conventional open vent system, maybe unvented if better performance hot water required for body jets rainheads etc.
Last edited by Paul Barker on Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#7 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Daniel Quinn »

All of a sudden Corbyn’s nationalisation of energy deos’nt seem such a bad idea.

I vote they take back all the money they have paid in dividends in the past 30 years before they are allowed to increase prices.
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Ali Tait
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#8 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Ali Tait »

Power utilities (or any other utilities imo) should never have been sold off in the first place.
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Ali Tait
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#9 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Ali Tait »

jack wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:56 pm
Paul Barker wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:30 pm The cop of gshp and ashp is abismal in cold weather, using 1kw of electricity to provide 1kw of heat.
That's a sweeping statement - have you any reference for that because it's certainly not what we see.

The system we use (which is a pretty standard one) is a GSHP from IVT - originally Swedish (now owned by Bosch) - in Sweden some 30+% of properties use GSHPs with great success - typically with extremely low outdoor temperatures, the CoP can drop to 3 or thereabouts, but in the UK, the outdoor temperature rarely drops below 0C for any length of time...

Also, for a GSHP, the coils are buried a metre or more down where the ground temperature doesn't fluctuate that much - a cold frosty night makes very little difference to the temperature round the coils.

I agree that the CoP of ASHPs can drop (to around 1.5 I understand), but GSHPs are largely isolated from air temperature changes and the ground temperature at the coil depth is typically 10-12C all year round

One metric that is more useful is the Seasonal CoP (SCoP) which is pretty static for GSHPs and varies quite a lot for ASHPs.
In England maybe. Where I come in Scotland from can remain in minus temps for extended periods in the winter.
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Paul Barker
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#10 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Paul Barker »

Ali Tait wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:28 pm Power utilities (or any other utilities imo) should never have been sold off in the first place.
What he said!
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe." – Albert Einstein
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pre65
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#11 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by pre65 »

Paul Barker wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:04 pm
Ali Tait wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:28 pm Power utilities (or any other utilities imo) should never have been sold off in the first place.
What he said!
I must add my name to that sentiment.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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Paul Barker
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#12 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Paul Barker »

V n V, don’t be too pessimistic about new boiler, I very seldom have to fix an open vent heat only regular boiler, different names for same thing as youre erm… “energy saver” rather miss named!

My potterton version of original baxi duotec factory date 2005, As an engineer I strip and clean old school every year and set electrode gap. Never needed a set of electrodes. Only ever broke down once, about 3 years ago: secondhand fan off eBay procured £30. Run perfect since. Flue tests we do on it never reveal any tinkering required as it’s not just in tolerance at each service but by a multiple of 10 better than the National standards.

I think more people have those experiences than just me.
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Daniel Quinn
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#13 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Daniel Quinn »

You couldnt find anybody against thatchers policy in 1981 ( I was to young to vote) everyone saw it as a nice little earner.

You will find labour people like kinnock, brown and Benn being extremely prescient but nobody took any notice.

In many ways the crap we live in , is socialism laughing at the majority . Look what you’ve done
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andrew Ivimey
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#14 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by andrew Ivimey »

Perhaps you didn't look in the right places. Plenty of people fought Thatcher and we were roundly beaten. I met Thatcher in '72 when she was merely secretary of state for education. I have often fantasied about if I'd leapt on her chest and cracked her skull on the pavement what a blessing it would have been for the UK..... ( not exactly a Marxist interpretation of History but there you go; grammar school education. OH my, such violence but even so.... we do what we can but we live in a strange version of democracy ( could be worse) and have to chew on the left over gristle of what ignorance and greed leave us until we, the people are less greedy and less ignorant....ain't gonna happen is it!? But still I do what I can.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
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Ray P
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#15 Re: What should we do about rising energy prices?

Post by Ray P »

andrew Ivimey wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:02 pm Perhaps you didn't look in the right places. Plenty of people fought Thatcher
Yep, I was part of that too. Remember the poll tax marches too?

This song seems appropriate...



The song is on his album 'Handmade Life'
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
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