Fane 15" full range speaker

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#91 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

1/ what has this got to do with music, stoooopid charts again.
2/ ported enclosure, that fecked it for a start.
3/ depends on the cabinet, you didn't line it with steel or tiles as an alternative to wadding so how do you know.
4/ convention says add wadding so everyone does, listening to music tells you not to do it.
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#92 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by chris661 »

I told you, the first one sounded like a boxy mess (as evidenced by the big peaks and dips in the 800Hz range), and the second one sounded like music.

Just because you personally find it impossible to correlate a graph with how something sounds, it doesn't mean we're all incapable of such.
For instance, if you draw a smiley face with the 5-band EQ on older HiFi systems, you know it's going sound boom-tizz, with no midrange. Same deal here, we're just looking at the curve in more resolution.

Chris

PS - the ported box was necessary - this is a PA speaker, and I need every last bit of output I can get from it.
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#93 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

And I have said it is obviously not a good box and explained the reasons. If wadding *cured a problem* then it was bad design in the first place in order to have the problem. A cure is no where near as good as prevention, as with medicine, as with any form of design. Wadding is a mechanical filter to try and solve a cock-up and just creates a different, maybe for you more pleasant, cock-up.

There are better ways to cure the problem if you are stuck with it, increase mass and stiffness. I can prove it to anyone with an open mind. Though if the speaker was packed full of daft crossover components then nothing would save it (the music).

Steve Cresswell found this out as well and has tried with no success to stop Ant following the brainwash with his 15 inchers. Stop the original problem, don't try to cure it.
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#94 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Ant »

Right.
I have not been brainwashed by anything.
How the fuck am I sopposed to add a huge amount of steel plate to a speaker cab the size of a house?
The damned thing is not a one man lift as it is

I have added the fucking wadding you are so bothered about to increase the effective cab size and see what it did not to cure any fucking problem.

They are my speakers, not yours and I shall do whatever the hell I like.

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#95 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

I was talking to Chris not you - So you are telling me I have no right to put my opinion but Chris has. It has nothing to do with steel plate, that is a solution to bad material cabinets like MDF and chipboard, yours aren't, they are marine ply I think. You can increase mass or increase stiffness, probably another or couple more braces will do it. Wool does nothing inside a speaker but make them sound woollen. Sometimes just taking it out of existing speakers suddenly gives you more music, not always but that means they were duff in the first place.
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#96 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by ed »

Ant

Is there any chance you could reign in the langauge? Imo there isn't actually a need for it. I realise it flies in the face of freedom of speech but......

this is the second time you've posted and I've had to turn the laptop off as my eight year old climbs over the kitchen chairs to see what I'm doing...The last time I put you on ignore but then realised that doesn't work if I don't log in and I'm just browsing...they grow up quick enough as it is, but it's a pain having to answer questions that in my opinion don't have to be answered yet......

I realise also that you might be angry...but isn't that making your problem somebody elses problem?
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#97 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Greg »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:39 pm Wool does nothing inside a speaker but make them sound woollen.
Sweeping statement. it depends on application. My sealed midrange chambers are well stuffed with long hair wool. They sound anything but woollen. More like crystal clear and musically transparent.
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#98 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Shaman »

ed wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:48 pm Ant

Is there any chance you could reign in the langauge? Imo there isn't actually a need for it. I realise it flies in the face of freedom of speech but......

this is the second time you've posted and I've had to turn the laptop off as my eight year old climbs over the kitchen chairs to see what I'm doing...The last time I put you on ignore but then realised that doesn't work if I don't log in and I'm just browsing...they grow up quick enough as it is, but it's a pain having to answer questions that in my opinion don't have to be answered yet......

I realise also that you might be angry...but isn't that making your problem somebody elses problem?
Isn't this a forum meant for adults? Sometimes the language gets fruity!
Your responsibility to keep your 8 year old from seeing it isn't it?
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#99 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by pre65 »

Shaman wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:35 pm
ed wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:48 pm Ant

Is there any chance you could reign in the langauge? Imo there isn't actually a need for it. I realise it flies in the face of freedom of speech but......

this is the second time you've posted and I've had to turn the laptop off as my eight year old climbs over the kitchen chairs to see what I'm doing...The last time I put you on ignore but then realised that doesn't work if I don't log in and I'm just browsing...they grow up quick enough as it is, but it's a pain having to answer questions that in my opinion don't have to be answered yet......

I realise also that you might be angry...but isn't that making your problem somebody elses problem?
Isn't this a forum meant for adults? Sometimes the language gets fruity!
Your responsibility to keep your 8 year old from seeing it isn't it?
Both points of view have their merits.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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#100 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by ed »

Shaman wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:35 pm
Isn't this a forum meant for adults? Sometimes the language gets fruity!
Your responsibility to keep your 8 year old from seeing it isn't it?
thank you, I'm well aware of what my resposibilities are...

what I wasn't aware of is that this forum is for adults only

I am advised
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#101 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Greg wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:10 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:39 pm Wool does nothing inside a speaker but make them sound woollen.
Sweeping statement. it depends on application. My sealed midrange chambers are well stuffed with long hair wool. They sound anything but woollen. More like crystal clear and musically transparent.
Then try taking it out.
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#102 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by pre65 »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:42 pm
Greg wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:10 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:39 pm Wool does nothing inside a speaker but make them sound woollen.
Sweeping statement. it depends on application. My sealed midrange chambers are well stuffed with long hair wool. They sound anything but woollen. More like crystal clear and musically transparent.
Then try taking it out.
It's well documented on here how judicious use of long haired wool and / or carpet underlay has improved many a DIY speaker.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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#103 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Per usual complete lack of understanding and twisting what I am recommending.

It is the same with every other filter, mechanical or electrical used in audio, what I am saying is if you don't need it don't use it. And I stated that Steve Cresswell had discovered this and tried to tell his son (from conversation at Owston), for that I get it in the neck. Steve built his cases so he didn't need it, realising if you need it then the original cabinet design is wrong. It is also well known with my Doc Mods that people have done that bad cabinets can be made better, and don't have to be packed with mechanical filters, been proved many times and written up at HFS and by two here.

My argument is people don't think. They are told all speakers need wadding so in it goes without a second thought. I have been saying it since the 1980's, so I think my brain is pretty well adjusted around the concept by now, as in medicine prevention is better than cure as all cures have side effects.

Wadding and cabinet damping is a cure you may not need, and if you do find out what causes it and change that.
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#104 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Greg »

So who’s twisting what? As usual, no-one, apart from within your paranoid imagination.

I simply challenged your sweeping statement that wool in a speaker cabinet made it sound woollen and moved on to evidence why I disagree with you. That is the case. I have tried removing it, actually twenty years ago listening without the damping at the time of build. Adding the carpet felt to the walls and long haired wool into the enclosure certainly tamed the sound into a correct presentation. Works for me, end of. Been working on this for about 25 years. There’s nowt you can tell me after that, because you don’t know the circumstance, the speakers or the system feeding them. In fact you know jack shit, don’t you think?
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#105 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr »

Let's clear things up here.

I told Ant to build the cabs initially without wadding and with bracing. I also mentioned that he would probably need extra bracing, given the much larger cabinets than I have on the 12s. So Richard's acccount of our conversation at Owston is correct.

So let's get things straight about these things. They are a "knock-up and let's see what happens" job, as were my 12s.

The fact that they are so damned good in the knock-up version is a testament to the solidity of the design. As Richard infers, if the design is good in the first place, then wadding assumes minimal importance. However this does have to be qualified because wadding in a cab is not the same as gluing/stapling a bit of lagging to the walls, to dissipate the backwave and prevent it emerging delayed, through the cone. This is especially pertinent to wider than deep cabs, with big drivers where the rear of the driver is closer to the back wall than on a modern speaker. Whatever you do to treat the cab, if that backwave is not stopped from interfering with the front output, then the music will end up smeared to hell.

Bracing is a tricky concept to get right, because where you put the braces will affect the distribution of frequencies that the cab walls will vibrate at. It's all very well bracing, but slap dash bracing especially on speaker cabs the size of the 15, can easily force the cabinet ringing modes right into the sensitive midrange, which is exactly where you don't want them; interference from wrong bracing will, like indiscriminate stuffing, smear the music.

However in the case of Ant's speaker, he hadn't the time to mess about building and rebuilding cabinets as there are other, way more important things, far more pressing on his time and thoughts than getting all nerdy about a pair of speakers, especially one that was 99% there in its original knock up form.

I phoned him Friday about feeding/watering the dog on the Saturday for the day as we were on a day out in Llandudno. During the conversation he mentioned the cushion in the bottom of the speaker cabinet, and I had no problem with that. As a quick fix it works and as he won't be building new cabs it'll do nicely for now.

He may get around to adding another couple of braces (he was on about doing that if he feels like it) or he may leave well alone with the cushion installed and accept that. Either way he has a great speaker on his hands; one that performs as well as the 12 and is, if anything, slightly sweeter in the violin register than said 12, so he has a good sound at home; effortless is how he described them and I would wholly concur with that.

My own 12s started as a knock-up job and ended up being permanent. His 15 are on the way to doing the same by the look of it. Both these drivers are superb, require minimal work to get a great sound and they play music properly when put in a well designed sealed box.

They remain a work in progress, but unlike most other works in progress. they are still good enough in knock up form, to pass muster in any high end system, so the motivation to improve takes a back seat to just enjoying the music they produce. That in my book is a good position to be in with a pair of speakers.
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