All New Metronomes.

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Nick
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#46 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Nick »

But if person a says a term means x and person b says it means y, who is right?
It doesn't matter, its not a question of being right, its a question of being consistent. Generally whatever description is the most restrictive is the best to use.

Imagine a situation where you are trying to decide if both apples and oranges should be both called fruit. Its true that they are both fruit, so you may argue it doesn’t matter if you just call them fruit. But if you want to make some cider, it suddenly does matter. So its not a question of right or wrong, but how useful the naming of objects are when it comes to picking them for the use we want to make of them.

There is truth in that you may say, just pulp them, and see if they turn into cider, if they do, they are apples. But knowing how to distinguish them before acting, may save time later (or you may discover they were in fact pears, and what you have is similar, but not actually cider).

Also, the problem is that measuring speakers is very hard, and because of that, its not always clear from the results that regarding them as one or the other was more useful, that only becomes clear after its been done a number of time, and changes have been made to the design based on the choice of model if the original choice was correct. Trying to get the theory correct does matter if you hope to make real repeatable transferable (as in the information will be of use to others, not just repeating what you have done, but they can stand on your shoulders) progress.
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#47 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by IslandPink »

Yes !
I think the discipline of speaker design and acoustics is ( and was ) small and scattered, unlike more mainstream engineering disciplines. For this and whatever other reasons it seems any industry bodies have failed to standardise the nomenclature in a way that exists in eg. electronics or mechanical engineering. My gripe is that it make it hard for people to get a foothold in the subject.
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#48 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Scottmoose »

MJK wrote:So a straight untapered pipe is a Labyrinth or TL. But if it contracts uniformly by a total of 1% along the length it is now a tapered labyrinth. If that pipe expands uniformly by a total of 1% along the length it is no longer a Labyrinth or TL but is now a horn. Why is it not an expanding TL or Labyrinth?

The acoustic behavior of all three pipes (measured and/or simulated) will be for all practical purposes identical. Your jargon makes no sense, it is not based on technical performance differences. Do you really believe there are significant enough differences in the three pipes I propose to assign them different names/labels which in effect indicates different performance? I don't, these definitions demonstrates ignorance of the physics.
Sigh. No Martin, I do not believe there would be any significant difference whatsoever. As you know perfectly well. There will be a tiny amount, obviously, that equally obviously would in almost every case be impossible to measure outside the most sterile laboratory conditions. As I have stated several times, these are simply convenient terms or handles, and the practical results necessarily vary by degree. They are not meant to be crystalline definitions of a very narrowly applied / specific instances. I and others are happy with them, and will not be bullied into changing just because you don't happen to care for it. I can live with that: you will have to also.

You call a resonant straight pipe with mass-loading an MLTL. Fair enough, so do the rest of us, although Mass Loaded Quarter-Wave Resonator / MLQWR would be a more accurate description, if (if) we are to apply hyper-narrow definitions, since the implication inherent to the TL term is impedance matching or flat impedance (unless we also insert 'mismatched' caveats), and if we were to demand adherence to such ridiculously narrow conditions then only speakers that could be said to adhere to it would be those where the enclosure is designed for the sole purpose of providing the flattest possible impedance load, with zero other considerations at all. Very few / nobody applies it so rigidly in practice, or believe it should be so. I certainly don't, nor, clearly, do you. In the same way, GM, myself and others use the term 'horn' with similar looseness to refer to expanding pipes. We are perfectly aware that a portion (or even the majority & in some cases all) of the usable BW is produced by resonant action, how much depending on how compromised the expansion is relative to the optimal.

Re the 1/2 wave mention, this is generally a reference to horns needing to be at least 1/2 wave long for maximum efficiency over the target BW. If expansion is minor, this is more or less irrelevant for practical purposes, obviously, but becomes progressively more significant as expansion increases. As noted, it depends on how rigidly one wishes to apply xyz terms. Some of us prefer to view the behaviour of enclosures as shades of grey (hopefully not 50) rather than fixed lines, as a progressive shift occurring as you move in one direction or another. YMMV as always.
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#49 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by MJK »

Scott,

I am not going to pick apart your previous post even thought there are a number of technical errors and more strung together phrases stated as accepted facts. It is just not worth my time. You generate tremendous amounts of confusion and frustration with your jargon, I get private e-mail questions all the time from people trying to understand one of your posts on DIYaudio. I don't think you even know you are doing it.
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#50 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Scottmoose »

IslandPink wrote:Yes !
I think the discipline of speaker design and acoustics is ( and was ) small and scattered, unlike more mainstream engineering disciplines. For this and whatever other reasons it seems any industry bodies have failed to standardise the nomenclature in a way that exists in eg. electronics or mechanical engineering. My gripe is that it make it hard for people to get a foothold in the subject.
'Can't argue with that. A particular bugbear of mine is Xmax. I did a quick count a few months back on how many different ways there are of generating a number for it. I gave up at 7 or 8 as I recall. They all give different figures if applied to the same driver...
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#51 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Scottmoose »

MJK wrote:Scott,

I am not going to pick apart your previous post even thought there are a number of technical errors and more strung together phrases stated as accepted facts. It is just not worth my time. You generate tremendous amounts of confusion and frustration with your jargon, I get private e-mail questions all the time from people trying to understand one of your posts on DIYaudio. I don't think you even know you are doing it.
Ah, blessed peace.
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#52 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Paul Barker »

I don't know when I'm confusing people either. Works for me. It's hard for people to keep up with a dyslexic, and I sure ain't going to stoop to the level of literary perfection. That would be a serious regression in intelligence.
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#53 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Paul Barker »

Yep, you guessed it, I have a chip on my shoulder.
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#54 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Scottmoose »

McCain's or Aunt Bessie's? :lol:
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#55 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Nick »

That would be a serious regression in intelligence.
But if people cant understand you, how would we know?

:D
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#56 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Paul Barker »

This is I have given up trying to please people whose literary skills are diffrent to mine. Not thta they care.
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#57 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Cressy Snr »

Err.....can I come out now? :confused1:
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#58 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Irene Idler »

Cressy Snr wrote:Drawing to scale, with grille.

Image
WRT WAF, I have to say I find the arch shape at the bottom of the current Mets much better-looking and more elegant than the shape in the above drawing. Is that just for ease of drawing or an intentional visual change?

Dave and I are, of course, most interested to hear the difference between these and the ones we heard back in August, especially since he'd already had a chat with Ant about building us a pair. Perhaps we should hold off until we can compare the two.
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#59 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by IslandPink »

As long as the total area of the four cut-outs is the same, you'll get the same performance. You can adjust the style to your taste.
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#60 Re: All New Metronomes.

Post by Cressy Snr »

Irene Idler wrote: WRT WAF, I have to say I find the arch shape at the bottom of the current Mets much better-looking and more elegant than the shape in the above drawing. Is that just for ease of drawing or an intentional visual change?

Dave and I are, of course, most interested to hear the difference between these and the ones we heard back in August, especially since he'd already had a chat with Ant about building us a pair. Perhaps we should hold off until we can compare the two.
The shape at the bottom is just ease of drawing. Our Ant likes the squared off arch, I like the proper curved one, so it really doesn't matter. As Mark says, as long as the area under each speaker is the same, the shape of the arch is just a matter of taste.

Once I get the new ones built and voiced, Dave and yourself are welcome to pop over for a comparison session.
Should be sorted early in the new year :)
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