trying a dl103

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:13 pm

so i finaly got round to trying a denon dl103 cart instead of the pickering xv-15 i had been using and what a shock i got !

i'd always thought that turntable and arm made a big difference but the difference between different carts was subtle. NOT so it appears.

immeadiatly i noticed how clear and easy to listen to the sound had become. more air and treble detail. i would go as far to say that in comparison the pickering sounds distorted. voices in particular sound very natural and 'hang' in the air. non electric, acoustic instruments and music also sound very real and in the room

is the change win, win ? i thought so until i put on 'pump it up' by elvis costello. most of his music is driven by rhythm and is not about ambience. i found that with the denon this music doen't work, at least for me. it didn't bounce along as it did with the pickering

so prehaps i need to order another arm for my evo air bearing arm from vic as they just drop in. and have the denon in one and a 'rhythm' cart in the other

now, a question....i ordered some cinemag step ups (so cheap and reputedly good) but first i've tried the denon without. i get a decent volume at 12 o clock on the vol control - so enough gain without step ups. there is some noise evident without music at this setting but i can't hear it when music is playing. do people find an improvement with the music playing with stepups when they don't need the extra gain ? i will have to try it for myself as well of course but surely the step ups will impart some colouration to the sound ?

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:26 pm

You need to load the Denon differently to MM, all MM require a 47k load and this is what an MM phono will provide.

The txs will change he load by the square of the ratio of the step up as well as step up the voltage from the Denon to make it sound louder.

So 1:10 step ups will change the load by 100 so 47k becomes 470R, as far as the cart is concerned, this just happens to be in the right ballpark for a Denon. There are various ways to tweak the load the cart sees.

What's your phono?

-- Andrew

pre65 · Post by **pre65** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:28 pm

Hi-it seems the DL 103 needs more "weight" at the headshell end to sound it's best.

A common "bodge" is a bit of blutak and a 20p piece on the headshell (i kid you not !) and a corresponding increase in the counterweight to bring it back into balance.All to do with its compliance.

Try it and see !

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:06 pm

oh dear, so presumably that means with an input impedance of 470K ohms rather than the 47K i have now the sound is going to be quite different

. hope i still like it !

can i just replace the 47K resistor across the input with a 470K one ?

i'll try the step ups @ 10:1 as well

phono stage is the audio note kits version of the M3.

phillip - i'll try the weighting trick when i manage to get the cart set up correctly

Post by **Nick** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:14 am

can i just replace the 47K resistor across the input with a 470K one ?

That was 470R, ir 470 Ohm.

In my experence, the extra hiss added by using a MC without a step up can be nice in some cases, its adds a airy softness to the sound, but fails when you need to reproduce dynamics, hopefully you will still like the 103 when using the step ups to return the noise floor where it should be.

Paul Barker · Post by **Paul Barker** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:54 am

nevertheless you may be right in saying the 103 doesn't carry the pace so fluidly.

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:54 am

Nick wrote:
can i just replace the 47K resistor across the input with a 470K one ?
That was 470R, ir 470 Ohm.

In my experence, the extra hiss added by using a MC without a step up can be nice in some cases, its adds a airy softness to the sound, but fails when you need to reproduce dynamics, hopefully you will still like the 103 when using the step ups to return the noise floor where it should be.

sorry nick, i meant if i want to try the denon with correct loading without step ups, can i just change the 47k resistor across the input of my phono stage to 470k ?

probably easyier to just drop the step ups in but i might like to try it both ways

for me the correct place for the noise floor is when the music 'works' best which isn't always where it sounds most 'acurate' or sounds best irespective of how the music is 'communicated' or where convention says it should be. this doesn't just apply to noise floor of course.

for me this is born out by the fact that as my system has changed, what music i find myself choosing to put on has changed. its not so much that my taste has changed but that at any particular time my system conveys some music better than other

peter qvortrop always says a good system will work with any music. i would like one of these. do they exist ? has anyone got one ?

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:08 am

Sorry I have caused confusion 470 Ohm is about right for a stock 103 and that is what you'll get, as far as the cart is concerned, with a 1:10 ratio.

As how to make a 103 have snap and pace, that's a whole different ball game.

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:22 am

Andrew wrote:Sorry I have caused confusion 470 Ohm is about right for a stock 103 and that is what you'll get, as far as the cart is concerned, with a 1:10 ratio.

As how to make a 103 have snap and pace, that's a whole different ball game.

thankyou for you're input andrew otherwise i wouldn't have realised i had incorrect loading. but i'd also like to know if and how i can correctly load the 103 without a step up ?

are you suggesting it is possible to improve a 103's 'snap and pace' ?

i'm experiencing deja vu from the atmosphere vs. prat thread

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:30 am

but i'd also like to know if and how i can correctly load the 103 without a step up ?

are you suggesting it is possible to improve a 103's 'snap and pace' ?

Depends upon the phono stage, what are you using? And do you mind opening up and taking an iron to it?

Yes, I think its possible to improve it, certainly. What's its mounted it/on arm-wise?

Post by **Nick** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:46 am

sorry nick, i meant if i want to try the denon with correct loading without step ups, can i just change the 47k resistor across the input of my phono stage to 470k

Yes, thats what I thought you meant. Without step ups, to get 470R loading on the 103, you would need a 470R not 470K resistor at the front of the phono stage.

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:47 am

phono is an audio note m3 circuit which i'm happy taking an iron to

arm is one of vics evo air bearings

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:57 am

Is the m3 valve phono? I dunno what an input valve might think of such a small resistor? If you were to try direct input, try 1k, or 470 Ohm, if you fancy having a go do let us know what happens, I'd be interested.

The problem with the 103 is its high output impedance, its really not great at driving step up transformers.

You can help ameliorate this by using as low a step up ratio as you can get away with and putting a big resistor in the phono (say 1Meg or 500k where the 47k was) and put the desired load resistor, a real 470 Ohm, across input of the transformers, instead.

For the arm, try the suggestion of some more weight on the front end, blutack a 20p on it, then balance it back up, now get the back end of the cart down a bit so the VTA is set so its tilted down at the back.

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:43 am

i've just cottoned on to my mistake. i was reading 470r as 470k for the load the denon wants to see. whoops ! sorry nick, i missed it even when you pointed it out

the m3 uses valves, the input goes into the grid of a 12AY7 via a 1k resistor with 47k to earth in front of it. so if i change the 47k to 470r there'll be more signal going to earth than to the grid, mind i'm not short of gain.

its starting to sound to me its going to be difficult to match the 103 to the m3 correctly without step ups ?

so first i'll try it with the naked step ups first and then try increasing the 47k and putting 470r across the output of the 103. finaly i'll try the 20p. i've alredy ajusted vta to get more bass.

Neal · Post by **Neal** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:58 pm

For me 470R was too high a loading for the 103, I preferred something in the 280~300R range.

Instead of de-soldering the existing 470K load R just add a resistor to the back of the input phono sockets. This resistor will be in parallel with the 470K loading R.

So adding say a 470R resistor in parallel would change the loading to 469.5R Hardly much of a difference!

If you do get some step ups you can mess about with loading the cart either via the primary or secondary windings, I think Andrew and Nick first brought this idea up a year or so ago. I found loading the primary gave a 'boost' to the presentation, not unlike a mild 'loudness' button.

This was great for rock I found. I made it switchable on my phonoII and could choose the loading depending on what I played. In the end I found I preferred the secondary loading more often than not so stuck with it....YMMV

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