Lab equipment for a complete beginner

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figlet108
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#1 Lab equipment for a complete beginner

Post by figlet108 »

My background is in computer architecture and software.
My electronics knowledge and experience is minimal.
Currently this is my bedtime reading:
Image

I want to invest in some good lab equipment that will last for many many years without the need for replacement or update.

Right now I think my priorities are:
1) A good bench multimeter.
I am being seduced by the shiny you tube videos for the likes of Agilent, e.g. the 34461A (£700), or a Rigol, e.g. DM3068 (£550)

But for analogue audio, amps, power supplies etc, what features are must-haves, what are nice-to-haves, what are complete-waste-of-money-not-haves
I don't mind paying money for an investment that's worthwhile.


2) A good digital oscilloscope
Obviously it's audio I care about and so far I've only come across one by picoscope that seems to have been designed with analogue/audio in mind: the 4262 with 16 (20) bit resolution at £750

I don't just want these for the immediate projects I have in mind but kit that will last that I'll grow into and not find limiting 5 years from now.

thanks folks
Jason
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#2

Post by Andrew »

I don't think you need to spend as much as that on a DMM, not to start with, I would suggest at the quality end of the market the small Fluke or Agilent range, or go cheap end and have a look at what Rapid can supply.

http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pc-10000 ... =GB&lc=eng

http://www.tester.co.uk/fluke-175-true- ... tAodHRcAEg

http://www.rapidonline.com/Test-Measure ... ultimeters

Rapid do a suitable scope for a few of hundred, UNI-T I think. I believe a few folk on here have these scopes and have found them fine for the job. On the other hand, most quality scopes are pretty much bomb proof so e-bay could be a good way if you fancy second hand.

http://www.rapidonline.com/Test-Measure ... ope-500789

For a sig gen and spectrum analyzer I would look into a quality sound card, a half decent PC, and one of these...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-PCB-panels- ... 25580ec2a4

http://www.pmillett.com/ATEST.htm

And a license to AudioTester or suchlike.

Then spend the money you saved on a few bench PSU perhaps a couple low-ish voltage and one high voltage and perhaps a second hand LCR meter.

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#3

Post by figlet108 »

Thanks Andrew! What a relief I don't need to spend as much as I thought. When you read lots of product reviews as a beginner it's easy to get sucked in and lose practical perspective.

I'll take a look at those options and see if anything appeals...

Out of interest, what lab kit do you use?
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#4

Post by Andrew »

I use a Fluke 175 as the every day meter, I've left this thing in the rain overnight (by accident) and it was fine. Agilent's stuff is fantastic but Fluke have lower price points - its up to you what you'd like to spend.

For scopes, I use an early 100MHZ HP 54600B that was £130 from ebay - nice scope but not state of the art by any means - it does most of what we need. Look to better this, but please don't spend more than 3x more!

One of the most powerful tools you can get is something that will give you a distortion spectrum - an FFT reading - we might call this our audio analyser. See some of my threads for how this works - what your are after here is finding how much noise there is in your amp, how much distortion etc also doing swept freq measurement etc - you can also measure speakers too if you have a decent microphone.

The ATEST box and HP8903 are my main stays in audio analyser arena. The ATEST does everything an HP8903 does and more. The ATEST uses a a quality commodity sound card and lacks for nothing for what we need, you just need to protect the sound card from HT/DC etc- that's what the ATEST does. The sound card will give you a decent sig gen too and the ATEST will allow you to drive all loads without fear of damaging the card. A decent sound card should have specs in the >-100db THD range for both in and out - you will pay big money for a sig gen that can better a £160 sound card 'at audio freq'. You have to ask why you would need more than 20Hz to 100kHz most of the time - they don't. Its a numbers game! How can test equipment vendors compete with the massive sales volumes of the PC market, the answer is they compete by working in the VHF/UHF/radio space and above etc, they aren't really interested in audio freq, so.... buy a decent sound card, look for 24bit.192kHz. I recommend the EMU sound cards; they are balanced too. An ATEST should set you back a few hundred, given most folk already have a decent PC to hold the PCIe card its a no brainer.

If you have any pocket money left. trawl e-bay for working/tested/verified DC bench supply or two and a decent LCR meter - like a Wayne Kerr or a older bridge style - I use a Maplin Gold Digtal LCR,
cost me £25 - would you believe it agrees with Nick's much superior Wayne Kerr meter pretty closely - at some point Maplin must have known their stuff (again HP/Agilent/Keithley/NI are great but very expensive).

What I use most are the Fluke 175 and the DC supplies then the ATEST/HP8903, then my scope and stand alone sig gen. The Maplin LCR gets a good look in too.

Get some big heat sinks and some large wattage resistors to act as dummy loads and 'speakers', so you can test stuff without blowing up anything that matters. If your feeling really flush there such as thing as a electronic load, but a big lump of metal and a big resistor does just fine.

In future, I would like a component tester like this..

http://uk.farnell.com/peak-electronic-d ... dp/3727476

and a valve tester like the uTracer that Paul has.

Don't be too afraid of second hand stuff on eBay, test equipment is generally very well made, buy wisely and it will hold its value, if the vendor can prove its OK then it should be fine.

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#5

Post by Andrew »

Oh, an electronic thermometer is handy, so you can test how hot your latest/greatest design is getting to see if it will fail....the added bonus is it will test the BBQ or Sunday Roast to make sure you don't get salmonella - mine is rubbish but only cost a few quid.

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#6

Post by figlet108 »

Thanks Andrew and apologies for going quiet.

So far I've bagged a Fluke 177 off ebay for a good price.
Incidentally do we need to worry about the extra accuracy of 4-wire resistance measurement that the bench DMMs have?

Also got the ATEST PCB as you suggested. That actually looks fantastic, as long as I don't cock up building it. Already got an Asus Xonar sound card to match it with so should be all set once it's made. Incidentally, what case did you manage to source for yours?

Then I found a 3 output Rigol DC supply on the bay 2x30v/3a 5v/3a which hopefully will do for now. I guess I may need a higher voltage supply at some later stage...

I already had an LCR meter:this cheap one. Probably will need a better one at some point, but not right now.

And already got a combi temp/sound/light meter from Maplin.

A friend gave me a cheap crappy digital USB oscilloscope, so I'll use that for now.

Currently I'm using a 100W light bulb as a load :)

So I think I'm all set for now.

I do like the look of those Atlas Analysers, but I think I'd go for the Pro version.
I'm a way from from needing one though :)

Thanks for your advice Andrew.
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#7

Post by jack »

Hi Jason,

Its easy to get distracted by the wonderment of lab kit, but for audio use, generally, expensive is not necessarily better.

I concur with Andrew regarding the ATEST - had one for years - anything by Pete Millet is good. AudioTester is a great program.

Like Andrew, I also use an HP 8903B with Pete's HPIB/GPIB control software as well as other kit.

Note that if you are working with valves rather than something like a Doug Self "Blameless" solid-state design, having kit that measures down to 0.0001% is kind of pointless - anyway, such specifications and accuracy depend on having current calibration certificates for the whole test chain - something most amateurs are extremely unlikely to do.

Equally, there is no point at all in having an 8 or even 6-digit DVM - valves simply don't care too much about anything beyond, say, 2 decimal places. I'd start with a reasonable, not too expensive, DVM. You'll probably need at least two and if one is detonated, it won't be too costly... For a bit more, consider a "True RMS" DVM (the "True" word is important)- can be very useful.

I have several of the Peak Electronics testers - they are good pieces of kit - the DCA55 and LCR40 are the bits I use most - every day I'm in the lab really. Peak are also a great company, and British to boot! Not sure about the need for the DCA55 Pro version in most cases - it provides recording to a PCB etc. but in the 10 years I've had a DCA55, not once has that been a requirement.

I built my uTracer as a Christmas present to myself last year - love it, but again, you really really don't need a valve tester like that - most valve amp builders don't have one, certainly not as a beginner both in electronics and valves...

Its important to remember that with valves you are generally working with BIG voltages that can destroy lab equipment (and you!) in the blink of an eye. Expensive kit can become worthless in an instant, especially if you are a beginner!

Finally, always remember its not just a numbers game - the best bit of test equipment you can have is free - your ears (corny as it may sound [deliberate pun]).

Cheers
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#8

Post by Andrew »

I would make life easy and order the parts for ATEST from Mouser and Digikey, including the case. I tried to compile alternatives using Farnell and RS and realized it could take me weeks. The US suppliers are a bit more expensive but so much less effort!

You may want to use slightly higher value input caps than Pete recommends but that can be an upgrade for later. If you read back through the thread on DIYAudio you'll see I did a build summary, it might be useful.

Finally, when you get the ATEST case buy a roll of copper tape and line the plastic box with the tape and then put an earth connection on that to act as a shield from external noise; its all in the DIY Audio thread. I use one of those antistatic earthing straps and plugs onto a grounding knob on the back of the box, like you get on the back of phono stages.

I also have an upgrade to the ATEST that can reduce the noise floor by 6-9db or so, but only worth it if your doing solid state stuff or getting OCD about noise in your amps. Again, an upgrade for later.

Fluke are nice meters :)
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#9

Post by jack »

Andrew wrote:Oh, an electronic thermometer is handy, so you can test how hot your latest/greatest design is getting to see if it will fail....the added bonus is it will test the BBQ or Sunday Roast to make sure you don't get salmonella - mine is rubbish but only cost a few quid.
Indeed these are useful, however...

I also keep bees, so last year I was looking to build a "cheapish" *real* FIR imager (with a proper thermopile - http://www.melexis.com/Infrared-Thermom ... 0-776.aspx ) to image the brood boxes in winter to see if my bees were still ok without opening up the boxes in the freezing cold and killing them (think Schrödinger). But like many of my ideas, I ran out of time... then I came across a Kickstarter project that did exactly what I want - not exactly cheap, but a fraction of the cost of a full, stand-alone, FIR imager.

See

Soooooo clever - turns your smartphone into an FIR imager - just absolutely the right approach - about USD 150 built - works a treat. Been using it for a couple of months...

Like you, Andrew, I looked at getting my ATEST bits from the UK, but certain parts like the display etc. were not available. It rapidly became a pain. US is the way to go.
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#10

Post by ed »

just a thought, regarding the original post....

what is it you are intending to build, short term and long term?

I thought it may have some relevance to the type and price of the equipment you need. There have been some fancy bits of kit mentioned here.
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#11

Post by jack »

ed wrote:just a thought, regarding the original post....

what is it you are intending to build, short term and long term?

I thought it may have some relevance to the type and price of the equipment you need. There have been some fancy bits of kit mentioned here.
Excellent point :)

Tools like the uTracer and fancy HP/DCA/ATEST/whatever kit are not necessary to get a great sound. A simple 'scope (1MHz), DVM & bench PSU is all you need (even the 'scope is a "nice to have"). Oh, and a decent soldering iron! If you are working with valve amps or old valve radios, an isolation transformer is a useful safety net (when used properly).

Best to start simple...
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#12

Post by Andrew »

Well I would argue that ATEST isn't really all that fancy, although it can be, and it gives Jason a sig gen as well as swept freq measurements, even if he doesn't feel ready to tackle FFT, speakers or other stuff its all there when he's ready.

Finally, ATEST is a great little project to get your hand in and if he ever blows it up with an accident, well, he built and so has all the skills to fix it too.

So, apart from a decent iron, we seem to pretty much agree on the rest of the advice - a DVM/DMM, 1Mhz scope and a bench PSU.
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#13

Post by figlet108 »

So initially I have a few of the same brand SS amps that have blown and need fixing. They all use identical amp boards so I want to understand/ recreate the amp boards myself and get a bunch made.

It would also be fun to see if I can improve on the implementation and make it sound better.

Then I want to do stuff like build a crossover and explore taking my speakers active, build a DAC and eventually think about building a valve amp (well it would be rude not to around here :) ) And maybe even make some speakers, in particular I'd LOVE to have a go at some electrostatics...

So I completely agree that keeping it simple and not going OTT with kit just for the sake of it is the way to go. It can be hard to get the balance right with this stuff and every item will require a different level of investment.
Before starting this thread I didn't even know how to prioritise the kit and I appreciate everyone's help to get some perspective on that. I had naively thought that an Oscilloscope was a must have, but it doesn't sound like it and I won't be spending any money on that right now (and just use the free one my friend gave me).

Sounds like the DMM is top, and I ended up with new Fluke 177 for £150. Annoyingly 30mins later on ebay an unboxed but unused Fluke 179 went for £100 :(
It seems like you need to spend A LOT more for a bench DMM that provides a meaningful upgrade to those Flukes and not worth it for most folks I guess.

The ATEST seems like the next important thing for me. (It will also help me acoustically treat my listening rooms which desperately need some attention). It'll be a fun project too, helping me understand how circuits go together and give me some soldering practice.

Originally I was going to build a few of my own PSUs (I found some suitable circuits online) but since I'm going to be busy with the ATEST I just gave in a bought a half decent triple output PSU. For sure it's way OTT for what I need right now, but wasn't too much off ebay and will get lots of use.

As for any future fancy kit, I think I need to earn the right to acquire them...

All in all I guess I'll end up spending about £400-500 by the time the ATEST is built...
But at least Paul talked me out of the Solar experiment, that's saved me £5k right there :)
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#14

Post by figlet108 »

Nick, I forgot to say thanks to you for your advice - lots of good stuff in there. I do get carried away by fancy kit in every walk of life so good to get rained in a bit.

Also, I'm a little frightened about diving straight into valves. I've clocked up 7 electrocutions already in my 40 years so I think I'll build up some skills elsewhere before coming to valves...

BTW, what solder do you guys use. I got some SAC3 LEAD FREE Roisin free stuff from Rapid in a bid to get something 'healthy', but I must admit it's not that easy to use...

Now, I really need to read that ATEST thread on DIYAudio...
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#15

Post by Paul Barker »

figlet108 wrote:I've clocked up 7 electrocutions already in my 40 years so I think I'll build up some skills elsewhere before coming to valves...
You have few enough to count them! Impressed.
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