Speaker cable

[chris661]

Music isn't just one note, agreed.

However, the forum I linked to has plenty of evidence (including some papers on the subject) that we humans don't notice if there's a 20kHz filter or not.

The 'site you linked to hasn't (after a brief search) much to do with the subject at hand - is there anywhere specific I ought to be looking?

Chris

[pre65]

There is "evidence" to suggest supertweeters that operate above our upper hearing limit DO make a difference to sounds we can hear.

[chris661]

I'm yet to be entirely conviced that's the case, Phil.

We usually use 1st order filters for our supertweeters, and call the -3dB point around 18kHz. That means its only -9dB at 9kHz.

I suspect the additional energy in the ranges we can hear is what we notice, but the only way to really test this would be to use a steep (24dB/oct, minimum) slope and do some testing.

I don't have the facilities at the moment to do that, but if anyone else tries it, I'll be interested to hear what transpires - this is only a hypothesis at this point.

Chris

[Scottmoose]

But read all info on this site :- www.archive.org

That's just a link to the wayback machine mainpage rather than an archived site.

Just one small point to mention in a word:- rubbish.
Yes the calc are right but the assumption that audio is 20KHz limit is not.
OK you ear can;t hear it but you do here the harmonics and sub harmonic and the lack of them when you limit to 20KHz.
This also assume you are only conducting at any one time one frequency (strange music) and that the other frequencies do not occupies the same conductor oh so wrong.
The writer was not thinking wide enough he has limited his thinking, please go and start again.

Interesting. Rubbish? Who said anything about a brickwall filter on the wire at 20KHz? Audioholics point out, quite correctly, that skin effect has almost zero impact on the primary audio BW, with even 12ga zip cord exhibiting only miniscule losses at 20KHz, its upper BW naturally extending considerably above this.

Two further points.

1/ The primary music carrier for most people (redbook Compact Disc) is brickwall filtered at just over 21KHz, so an extended HF BW for interconnect or speaker wire in such cases is rather like injecting penicillin into a skeleton: pointless. Vinyl can nominally get higher, but this depends on whether the cartridge is capable of it with reasonable distortion performance, to say nothing of the mechanical performance of the arm & deck, the quality of the recording, the quality of the pressing, and the condition of the carrier medium. The other physical high resolution formats with an extended HF BW are either dead in the water, or simply dead, and were questionable in the HF in any case: SACD for e.g. was regularly brickwall filtered, and the noisefloor above 20KHz rocketed -one of the objects of DSD was to shunt noise outside the primary hearing BW.

2/ Very few speakers are capable of even getting to 30KHz (i.e. 10KHz above our nominal HF hearing limit), and even fewer can do so with reasonable distortion performance at such frequencies. Since I design speakers, I keep up to date with such matters. There aren't a great many out there. Fact.

So. Let us assume that we have that exceptionally rare case: a system playing material recorded accurately with an extended upper BW on a carrier with low distortion / a low noise floor at such frequencies. The system has an amplifier which also possesses an extended HF BW and low distortion / noise at such frequencies. And the speakers in turn have an extended HF BW (ditto). Under typical home listening conditions, can we tell the difference between a wire with an HF F3 of, say, 30KHz, and one with an HF F3 of 40KHz? And would we care if we did? You tell me, with supporting data and / or credible references for the first. And for the second, personally, I don't. Life really is too short, especially given the amount of quality music there is out there with significant HF BW limits (i.e. 99% of it).

[Nick]

I'm yet to be entirely conviced that's the case

Maybe, but no one is trying to convince you of anything Chris

Interesting. Rubbish?

I would suggest remembering Thumpers mothers advice.

I think you have made it entirely clear Scott what you view is on the subject, but just listing a load of reasons why a bumblebee cant fly doesnt matter to the bumblebee.

A bunch of us were at Owston and we heard the differences that the cables were making. The reason for the difference may not be what is being hinted at, but it doesn't affect the observation that there was a difference. Colin may be giving us hints as to why there is the difference, or he may be making it up to send us in the wrong direction, or even he may not know why they make a difference, but the bumblebee is still in the air.

[Neal]

Oh no! not the old Bumble Bee analogy, Nick, you of all people!

[Scottmoose]

I never said it can't make a difference Nick. I'm perfectly aware that it can (can) under certain conditions. Hell, I often exploit it for just that purpose. It was only a couple of days ago over on the DIYA forum I suggested a chap shift temporarily to 30ga magnet wire as a stopgap while he's building a valve amp. I'm simply pointing out that many of the things claimed to cause major differences in wire (for e.g. skin effect) do not stand up. Ergo, since they cannot be the cause of any differences that may exist, something else has to be. Fair enough?

[Nick]

Oh no! not the old Bumble Bee analogy, Nick, you of all people!

Its been a long weekend, and I don't have the energy to spare thinking up a better analogy to try and calm down a cable discussion which seemed to be going the wrong side of polite disagreement.

I thought it was applicable, I take it its been used elsewhere?

[andrew Ivimey]

might be interesting?


http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04 ... oduct.html

[pre65]

Very interesting Andrew.

I was particularly struck by this comment in the discussions that followed.

"I find most amusing that the auditory assessment of a hifi system usually assesses a synthetic experience totally created at the mixing desk. So there is no clear reference to reality, but only a perception of an artificial reality compared to a notion of an imagined reality.

Having recently been to a few live orchestral performances, I think I prefer the recording to the real thing, since the real thing only sounds really good where the conductor's head is and I can't sit there"

[Scottmoose]

My friend Bob (Brines) regularly gets steamed up over this, or at least the 'imaging' side of things, since he points out it's usually artificially created by the engineer at the mixing desk. YMMV on that one. I know where he's coming from & he's perfectly correct for many cases, but I still value it, whether artifical or not.

[Colin TQ]

I'm yet to be entirely conviced that's the case

Maybe, but no one is trying to convince you of anything Chris

Interesting. Rubbish?

I would suggest remembering Thumpers mothers advice.

I think you have made it entirely clear Scott what you view is on the subject, but just listing a load of reasons why a bumblebee cant fly doesnt matter to the bumblebee.

A bunch of us were at Owston and we heard the differences that the cables were making. The reason for the difference may not be what is being hinted at, but it doesn't affect the observation that there was a difference. Colin may be giving us hints as to why there is the difference, or he may be making it up to send us in the wrong direction, or even he may not know why they make a difference, but the bumblebee is still in the air.

Dead Right Nick,

I do want folk to work it out and understand for themselves.
But most folk I found are so narrow minded that any change from there thoughts or so called experts must and always be wrong, not all.

Back to basic is always best, try it.

Back to the Music for me, bye.

[andrew Ivimey]

Thumper's mother?

dead right nick = you agree with me
..want folk to work it out for themsleves = agree with me
most folk ... = don't agree with me

back to basic is best, hm ... define 'basic'

I'm off to listen to music ... that = basic

So this is nothing to do with 'Hi-Fi' ?! What on earth are we talking about here?

[Nick]

So this is nothing to do with 'Hi-Fi' ?! What on earth are we talking about here?

I am wondering just that.

have you never seen Bambi Andrew?

[Dave the bass]

I have, I cried when 'man' entered the forest.



DTB