Lampy cd player
#91
I've just managed to stop laughing like a fool long enough to write this not good news really but here we go,
The Lampy cdp is up and running well and sounds (suspiciously) good on some recordings and a bit strange on others. The highs are the issue, something unrealistic and not right there, the bass is superb.
It is running in NOS mode and has no reconstruction filter (low pass brickwall filter at less than 1/2 sampling rate) after the dac.
Nyquist theorem says that a bandlimited analog signal that has been sampled can be perfectly reconstructed from an infinite sequence of samples if the sampling rate exceeds 2B samples per second, where B is the highest frequency in the original signal. That it is bandwidth limited is very important.
We speculated it may be that the equipment and our ears would have the effect of a reconstruction filter and not allow much in the way of f after 22KHz and so a deliberate reconstruction filter may not be needed.
Today I hooked the scope in again but this time to the output of the power amp with full system connected. I played the test signals from the cd, listening to the tones produced at low level and monitoring the signal on the scope.
The idea was to see if the jumbled multiple traces seen previously at higher frequencies were improved by the hf losses in the system. They were indeed, though not by much. I then put a small cap (various 220pF to 22nF) across the cdp output and saw that the traces cleaned up more but that by the time they had been cleaned up at 20KHz there was little amplitude left. So clearly a filter is needed but it must be very steep. We (I) can now see how filtering instead at a higher f from an OS signal is more practical.
Anyway, back to the action, it was hooked up and playing each test tone burst for 10 secs, then the next higher one, etc. The traces became ragged and the tones increased in pitch. I was pleased to hear 5KHz, 10KHz but then amazed to hear 15KHz even louder sounding like the old BBC test tone, but then 18KHz just as clearly though a different tone, and finally 20KHz loud and clear! Wow, this is a rejuvenating cd player! Heard 18KHz before, just, on a good quiet day at high level, but never 20KHz
Popped the disc in the Pioneer and played them again. All traces clean and level. All tones rising in pitch and disappearing at 15KHz as usual
Clearly in the NOS player without reconstruction filter the higher tones were aliased with lower ones and that accounts for me being able to hear "them" and the strangley interesting treble with added details in the music!
This is such a simple test to do. You don't even need the scope, just play the test disc in a stock cd player, then again in your modded player, and if you can't hear the highest tones in the stock player but can in the modded one the answer is aliasing not rejuvenation I think.
The Lampy cdp is up and running well and sounds (suspiciously) good on some recordings and a bit strange on others. The highs are the issue, something unrealistic and not right there, the bass is superb.
It is running in NOS mode and has no reconstruction filter (low pass brickwall filter at less than 1/2 sampling rate) after the dac.
Nyquist theorem says that a bandlimited analog signal that has been sampled can be perfectly reconstructed from an infinite sequence of samples if the sampling rate exceeds 2B samples per second, where B is the highest frequency in the original signal. That it is bandwidth limited is very important.
We speculated it may be that the equipment and our ears would have the effect of a reconstruction filter and not allow much in the way of f after 22KHz and so a deliberate reconstruction filter may not be needed.
Today I hooked the scope in again but this time to the output of the power amp with full system connected. I played the test signals from the cd, listening to the tones produced at low level and monitoring the signal on the scope.
The idea was to see if the jumbled multiple traces seen previously at higher frequencies were improved by the hf losses in the system. They were indeed, though not by much. I then put a small cap (various 220pF to 22nF) across the cdp output and saw that the traces cleaned up more but that by the time they had been cleaned up at 20KHz there was little amplitude left. So clearly a filter is needed but it must be very steep. We (I) can now see how filtering instead at a higher f from an OS signal is more practical.
Anyway, back to the action, it was hooked up and playing each test tone burst for 10 secs, then the next higher one, etc. The traces became ragged and the tones increased in pitch. I was pleased to hear 5KHz, 10KHz but then amazed to hear 15KHz even louder sounding like the old BBC test tone, but then 18KHz just as clearly though a different tone, and finally 20KHz loud and clear! Wow, this is a rejuvenating cd player! Heard 18KHz before, just, on a good quiet day at high level, but never 20KHz
Popped the disc in the Pioneer and played them again. All traces clean and level. All tones rising in pitch and disappearing at 15KHz as usual
Clearly in the NOS player without reconstruction filter the higher tones were aliased with lower ones and that accounts for me being able to hear "them" and the strangley interesting treble with added details in the music!
This is such a simple test to do. You don't even need the scope, just play the test disc in a stock cd player, then again in your modded player, and if you can't hear the highest tones in the stock player but can in the modded one the answer is aliasing not rejuvenation I think.
#92
Just a couple of points I feel I should add.
The one thing you may have done, but didnt report, is if adding the cap to the output removed the unwanted extra tones? Without that info, we can't be certain its the lack of filter causing the problem (though it probably is)
I found a very similar problem with heating DHT's with HF AC signals, you got unwanted tones generated. I think the best way to hear the problem is to play a frequency sweep tone, that should show the tone rising, going away as the ears give up, and then coming back but falling in frequency and doing all sorts of odd dissonant things.
Well, up to this point, a filter is only needed if we want to look at the signal instead of hear it.So clearly a filter is needed but it must be very steep.
Yes, though pedantically, its imaging I think not aliasing on the output side.but can in the modded one the answer is aliasing not rejuvenation I think.
The one thing you may have done, but didnt report, is if adding the cap to the output removed the unwanted extra tones? Without that info, we can't be certain its the lack of filter causing the problem (though it probably is)
I found a very similar problem with heating DHT's with HF AC signals, you got unwanted tones generated. I think the best way to hear the problem is to play a frequency sweep tone, that should show the tone rising, going away as the ears give up, and then coming back but falling in frequency and doing all sorts of odd dissonant things.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
#93
Yep, did that, and it is as you say. The op impedance of the player (valve stage) is around 38KHz so tried caps from 220pF across it (19KHz filter corner) upwards. Filtering highs off the top cleans it up, it's the slope needed to filter without taking lower frequencies with it that's the problem, it needs to be very steep to get rid of everything after 22KHz without taking audible f lower down with it as the simple first order I tried does.Nick wrote:The one thing you may have done, but didnt report, is if adding the cap to the output removed the unwanted extra tones? Without that info, we can't be certain its the lack of filter causing the problem (though it probably is)
The question is what now? It cetainly matters as the effect on the sound was heard even before the traces seen. Higher f signals will be effectively changed in tone and increased in volume. That's why it sounded strange. I was literally hearing stuff that wasn't there (for me) before.I then put a small cap (various 220pF to 22nF) across the cdp output and saw that the traces cleaned up more but that by the time they had been cleaned up at 20KHz there was little amplitude left.
I had reported similar to John Caswell when I first tried NOS a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was magic, some extra band playing along, we mused it wouldn't be right and I said I'd check output later. Should have gone through this check first. Not sure what to do with the Lampy stage now.
I could put 4x back in and try a steep filter I suppose. The answer is clear to see on the scope and will be there when the trace is clean without any attenuation. How steep though and if it's possible even at higher f using a valve stage I don't know. Probably not.
So now I'll tweak the other player to the good level I found before going valve and have a think. All contributions welcome
#94
Well, the 4X would certainly make adding a filter a lot simpiler, and it spossible much of the problem would be removed because of the higher frequency it was all happening at.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
#95
Hi Nick, Returned to this, done some more reading and am now following you. It isn't aliasing as that is on the record side as you say ie Analogue > Digital. At least not in the way that would be addressed by an antialiasing filter as part of the usual CD process.Nick wrote:Yes, though pedantically, its imaging I think not aliasing on the output side.
I found a very similar problem with heating DHT's with HF AC signals, you got unwanted tones generated. I think the best way to hear the problem is to play a frequency sweep tone, that should show the tone rising, going away as the ears give up, and then coming back but falling in frequency and doing all sorts of odd dissonant things.
Imaging though is the difference between the original f and the sampling f. So the 20KHz test tone I was hearing would be 20KHz + 24.1KHz if it was imaging as such which I still shouldn't hear, or do you mean imaging as a generic term because it's after D > A?
That leads to your example, what do you think would cause the audible tones I can hear at what should be clean 15KHz 18KHz and 20KHZ test f? They are all distinctly different in tone and volume. Up to 10KHz the test tone is clear and sounds accurate. Then something is being generated after that point. I note that it's after 1/2 sampling rate so assumed a digital cause but cannot see a reason.
#96
I was just about to post a similar thought.
Assuming you start with a 18kHz tone, the imaging will create a 44.1k - 18k tone as well, so we have 18k and 26100Hz. In a ideal world that would be that, you may hear the 18k but certainly won't hear the 26k. But, if something in the following path is non linear, then you will get mixing of the two tones, to give you the fundimentals and the sum and difference. So then you have
8.1k, 18k, 26.1k, 44.1k
And I think its the 8.1kHz tone you hear. So from what I know of your system, I suspect that most of it is moderatly low distortion, but something in there is creating what is effectivly IMD, and my first suspiscion is the valve output stage in the CD player itself.
It would be interesting to take the signal directly from the I/V resistor to your preamp and see if you get the same tones generated.
Effectivly is a ring modulator
The ironly is if you took the unfiltered output from the DAC and fed it to a low distorion solid state amp you may not hear the extra tones, and would not notice a difference between the filter being there or not
Assuming you start with a 18kHz tone, the imaging will create a 44.1k - 18k tone as well, so we have 18k and 26100Hz. In a ideal world that would be that, you may hear the 18k but certainly won't hear the 26k. But, if something in the following path is non linear, then you will get mixing of the two tones, to give you the fundimentals and the sum and difference. So then you have
8.1k, 18k, 26.1k, 44.1k
And I think its the 8.1kHz tone you hear. So from what I know of your system, I suspect that most of it is moderatly low distortion, but something in there is creating what is effectivly IMD, and my first suspiscion is the valve output stage in the CD player itself.
It would be interesting to take the signal directly from the I/V resistor to your preamp and see if you get the same tones generated.
Effectivly is a ring modulator
The ironly is if you took the unfiltered output from the DAC and fed it to a low distorion solid state amp you may not hear the extra tones, and would not notice a difference between the filter being there or not
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
#97
Yes, that might follow as,Nick wrote:I was just about to post a similar thought.
Assuming you start with a 18kHz tone, the imaging will create a 44.1k - 18k tone as well, so we have 18k and 26100Hz. In a ideal world that would be that, you may hear the 18k but certainly won't hear the 26k. But, if something in the following path is non linear, then you will get mixing of the two tones, to give you the fundimentals and the sum and difference. So then you have
8.1k, 18k, 26.1k, 44.1k
And I think its the 8.1kHz tone you hear. So from what I know of your system, I suspect that most of it is moderatly low distortion, but something in there is creating what is effectivly IMD, and my first suspiscion is the valve output stage in the CD player itself.
It would be interesting to take the signal directly from the I/V resistor to your preamp and see if you get the same tones generated.
Effectivly is a ring modulator
The ironly is if you took the unfiltered output from the DAC and fed it to a low distorion solid state amp you may not hear the extra tones, and would not notice a difference between the filter being there or not
14.1k, 15k, 29.1k, 44.1k
8.1k, 18k, 26.1k, 44.1k
4.1k, 20k, 24.1k, 44.1k
and I was starting to think it would be worth rebuilding the valve stage too as a digital problem per se didn't seem to fit the problem and I feel sure all this would have been noticed before by folk if it was a general problem of simply not having a reconstruction filter.
There are no other clues, the stage is very quite no hums or buzzes, thought it wasn't working at first, channels match and op level is fine around 3V.
I've got a fair amount of spare gain in the pre so may take the dac signal direct to it as you say, but probably just rebuild to Thorsten's ECC88 srpp with that gentle roll off filter on the front end. It must work surely or it would have been exposed as a problem by now. Lukas's stage though may be getting by if it's just a problemn with the way I've constructed it or if no-one else has tested it. It does sound impressive, but suspiciously so, and effectively reproducing all tones after 10KHz or thereabouts as multiples at lower frequency would explain what we heard, a clear but simple sound with apparent lack of true detail, had us talking in terms of MP3 you might remember or the limitations of 44.1 which I can't see as everyone knows CD is perfect Many thanks, will keep going...
#98
I have to be open and admit what I have told many people in person, I am highly dubious about a lot of the Lampenzator stuff. In the same way I am doubtfull about "my 2a3 amp will drive my LS 3/5a to realistic volume when playing Motorhead"
While I am banging on trying to put the world to rights, I will repeat another of my dogmatic thoughts. If two CD players or DACs sound very different, at the least one of them is broken.
As I said, exactly the same rason why I abandoned HF heating of DHT's
That would be my guess, and adding extra tones at the top could subjectivly improve things with girl and guitar type sources. The key point is that the generated tones are totally unmusically connected to the original tone, as you see a increasing input tone leads to a falling resultant tone.or if no-one else has tested it
While I am banging on trying to put the world to rights, I will repeat another of my dogmatic thoughts. If two CD players or DACs sound very different, at the least one of them is broken.
As I said, exactly the same rason why I abandoned HF heating of DHT's
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
#99
Another thought,
When I checked the voltages into load you'll remember they were significantly lower than the stage at quiescent open output.
At open output it suggested the bottom triode 2 would run at,
a2 97V with 0.253V across its 200R cathode resistor k2 giving a reasonable 1.26mA.
Connecting the op to ground via 47K to simulate running condition changed things dramatically to,
a2 51V, k2 0.131V giving 0.0655mA!
The voltages were posted a while back but I'm just re-checking my notes and see I've put it down the current as 0.655mA so it didn't click with me anyway back then...
You mentioned non linear...
When I checked the voltages into load you'll remember they were significantly lower than the stage at quiescent open output.
At open output it suggested the bottom triode 2 would run at,
a2 97V with 0.253V across its 200R cathode resistor k2 giving a reasonable 1.26mA.
Connecting the op to ground via 47K to simulate running condition changed things dramatically to,
a2 51V, k2 0.131V giving 0.0655mA!
The voltages were posted a while back but I'm just re-checking my notes and see I've put it down the current as 0.655mA so it didn't click with me anyway back then...
You mentioned non linear...
#100
Yep, spot on, we're getting there now I thinkNick wrote:I have to be open and admit what I have told many people in person, I am highly dubious about a lot of the Lampenzator stuff. In the same way I am doubtfull about "my 2a3 amp will drive my LS 3/5a to realistic volume when playing Motorhead"
That would be my guess, and adding extra tones at the top could subjectivly improve things with girl and guitar type sources. The key point is that the generated tones are totally unmusically connected to the original tone, as you see a increasing input tone leads to a falling resultant tone.or if no-one else has tested it
While I am banging on trying to put the world to rights, I will repeat another of my dogmatic thoughts. If two CD players or DACs sound very different, at the least one of them is broken.
As I said, exactly the same rason why I abandoned HF heating of DHT's
#101
Sorry, messing up the current calc again in my excitement at nailing this,Richard wrote:Another thought,
When I checked the voltages into load you'll remember they were significantly lower than the stage at quiescent open output.
At open output it suggested the bottom triode 2 would run at,
a2 97V with 0.253V across its 200R cathode resistor k2 giving a reasonable 1.26mA.
Connecting the op to ground via 47K to simulate running condition changed things dramatically to,
a2 51V, k2 0.131V giving 0.0655mA!
The voltages were posted a while back but I'm just re-checking my notes and see I've put it down the current as 0.655mA so it didn't click with me anyway back then...
You mentioned non linear...
the voltages posted are correct,
open output quiescent shows a reasonable 1.26mA but
into 47K shows 0.655mA, which I had recorded correctly but the significance had not registered with me; running an ECC83 type at 51V and 0.655mA is likely to be non linear I think.
#102
Yes, that would be my feeling as well.running an ECC83 type at 51V and 0.655mA is likely to be non linear I think.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
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#103
That's what I was wondering, i.e. you're not hearing 20 kHz but some lower difference product caused by mixing the 20 kHz with something elseNick wrote:I found a very similar problem with heating DHT's with HF AC signals, you got unwanted tones generated. I think the best way to hear the problem is to play a frequency sweep tone, that should show the tone rising, going away as the ears give up, and then coming back but falling in frequency and doing all sorts of odd dissonant things.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20189
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#104
Nick wrote:I have to be open and admit what I have told many people in person, I am highly dubious about a lot of the Lampenzator stuff.
While I am banging on trying to put the world to rights, I will repeat another of my dogmatic thoughts. If two CD players or DACs sound very different, at the least one of them is broken.
I have the same feelings TBH. One has to assume that the manufacturer has got it pretty well sorted before releasing the product on the market I would've thought
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#105
Well, I wouldn't go that far, there is a story I will tell you on the subject next time we are in a bar, but I can't post on t'nternet.Mike H wrote: I have the same feelings TBH. One has to assume that the manufacturer has got it pretty well sorted before releasing the product on the market I would've thought
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.