James D OB's

Paul Barker · Post by **Paul Barker** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:57 pm

I suppose if I have 1800 greenbacks plus import duty and shipping for them that would be money well spent. Thanks for the link. But when you see them next to compression horns you realise they would be slow.

ah well I have one 8 ohm Lowther pm6a which I bought new and haven't butchered and one antique square pm6a 15ohm which I foolishly cut the whizzer off.

They ought to make a match.

Maybe they will get me some of the way there.,

steve s · Post by **steve s** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:09 pm

good points all..

should have wrote 'generally' nick..

and you can include electrostatics if you want ed... i did say speakers and not drivers.

i wrote that to provoke some thought... there is mass confusion at times
ie someone posts how good something is.. all talk about it..some rush out to build one...are they still being used a year down the line? i'm sure i will get examples to prove me wrong.. but in general. I'm not saying its a bad thing, we all learn from each other and what we build..

I don't think i'm far off in my opinion, ..maybe 'expensive' and 'high quality' are not the same thing.. but over a period of time they can turn out to be..if they are in fashion or are desirable, high quality. etc. etc

there's also the opinion that something thats not quite so 'high quality' can be made as good as some thing that is, with a lot of skill and a bit of tweaking..
i feel this is true to a point (a bit like tuning cars?)
but that assumes that the high qualitiy components/parts cannot also be tweeked to get more from them.. and there is usually more than one aspect to high performance.

and this may be a foolish thing to say .... for me..( and assuming what i've wrote so far is not foolish..mmm)

i 've seen it written a few times that speakers introduce the highest levels of distortion and losses in the reproductive chain....

so could it be said.. that.. that's where the biggest gains can be in regard to placing quality components in the chain ?

so back to my point about getting the best drivers..
what ever make/model they may be of course..so who really knows that one? not me..

hope i don't sound too negative.. i'm full of cold...

steve

Post by **Nick** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:53 pm

i 've seen it written a few times that speakers introduce the highest levels of distortion and losses in the reproductive chain....

Yes, that does get written a lot, but I find that whilst it may be generally true (happy now Steve

), I find my ears can adjust to, and be happy with, different speakers far better than they can with different amps.

Darren · Post by **Darren** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:06 pm

Well put Nick

Paul Barker · Post by **Paul Barker** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:53 pm

For me both equal, but in topic with another thread speaker impednace makes a farce of selecting opt's by mainly impedance.

steve s · Post by **steve s** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:10 pm

Nick wrote:
i 've seen it written a few times that speakers introduce the highest levels of distortion and losses in the reproductive chain....
Yes, that does get written a lot, but I find that whilst it may be generally true (happy now Steve ), I find my ears can adjust to, and be happy with, different speakers far better than they can with different amps.

I'm always happy nick...

your quite right about getting used to things... we all do that..

but your ears adjusting to it does not make the distortions less right...
that is really saying.. i'm not going there..
for what ever valid reason that may be..

hence we all have our own ideas about what we are trying to achieve,
and our differing views on how to achieve our ever changing goals...and we've got each other to thank for that...

cheers steve

richardcooper2k · Post by **richardcooper2k** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:13 pm

yes to me also changes in speakers have a more obvious effect on the sound, but thats not always what i find ultimatly satisfying...

to me the test is wether after its been on 1/2 an hour i am enjoying the music rather than trying to work out if it sounds good/bad and why

so it seems if there's something to measure to tell if the sound is right it is our response to listening to it rather than anything in particular or combination of properties of the sound

there again prehaps i'm living on a different planet to everyone else

Post by **Nick** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:46 am

but in topic with another thread speaker impednace makes a farce of selecting opt's by mainly impedance.

Yep, its like trying to thread a needle while bouncing on a trampolene.

there again prehaps i'm living on a different planet to everyone else

But isn't that the point, we are all living on different planets, it great (for example) to visit planet Steve, or planet Paul, and to hear what happens there, but we all go back to our own den, with our own sounds, and our own correct.

Scottmoose · Post by **Scottmoose** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:06 pm

Yup. No argument from me Nick. :^)

You're all right IMO. Thing is, you need to think context. The music you'll be playing. The amp. The (gasp!) room (I've been roasted by people for speaking such heresy before now -one reason I never bother with AA).

The world's best speaker drivers in a mediocre cabinet will be beaten, and easily beaten, by something 1/10 the price or less in a decent box. Sure, you'll probably get glimpses of what they would be capable of, but no more, and the latter will ultimately give a more satisfying balance. For e.g. DaveD & I are doing something currently for a range of FR drivers that have a good call to that title, but the existing box designs are crippling their potential.

You can extend that thought further -the expensive drivers in an excellent cabinet will also be inferior to the cheaper setup if the former is loaded in a manner that simply doesn't suit the room, while the latter's particular cabinet design does. Nothing new about that -we've all experienced similar things. Look at how well the Metronomes can, within their admitted limitiations, match far more expensive gear.

And then there's the music. I couldn't care less how good a driver it is, I would not choose an unsupported 5in Lowther DX55 or something similar for farfield listening to heavy rock at ~live levels in a 70ft x 40ft room, whatever the loading method employed, up to, and including, full-sized 'proper' front horns. LF dynamics would be pitiful. For about half the price, if that's the requirement for the system, a pair of FE206Es in short front-horns, supported by a pair of 15in woofers in PA style scoop-bins / BVRs rolled off at ~500Hz would flatten them. It's all down to getting that elusive balance that suits your own requirements. :^)

Paul Barker · Post by **Paul Barker** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:44 pm

OK Scott you are starting to return the thread to topic, and I suspect you are the person to ask since James is away.

Shall do you recon the woofers James uses with the aer mk1's might be ok with pm6a or dx3 type of thing. Notwithstanding your inherent dislike of lowthers, not holding anything against you if it fails.

iansr · Post by **iansr** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:59 pm

Paul

If you are interested I have a vintage PM6a sitting in a box doing nothing. Not sure whether its 8 or 15 ohm, will check if you are interested?

I also have a pair of Accoustas with vintage PM6a units. Cabinets are probably not worth much but the drivers clearly are. John Howes gave them new surrounds a few years ago.

Regards
Ian

Paul Barker · Post by **Paul Barker** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:06 pm

Thanks I might well be. I have noticed that Lowther are vertually giving them away on a swap basis though and might be best to swap my square framed one which I foolishly cut the wizzer off for another like the modern pm6a I have.

I will be Damar treating them of course as I found it improved the 108e sigma markedly, and it was first tried on a Lowther by the Direct Heating gang.

Scottmoose · Post by **Scottmoose** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:22 pm

FWIW, I suspect they should match each other fairly well from a technical POV as the specs of the PM6a are similar to those of the AER MK1 (forget the nonsense on the Lowther site, little of which make any sense).

Don't get me wrong here -I don't dislike Lowthers. Quite the opposite; I think they make some of the best FR drivers on the planet. Steve's EX4s are superb devices -probably the best FR units I've heard to date. However, Lowthers, like all expensive drivers, have the weight of mythology to support. They're ultimately superior to cheaper equivalents, but they should be given that they're 600% more expensive. That gives you a head-start; I suppose what I'm trying to say is that however good your drivers, you still need to get them in a good cabinet, and make sure you've picked units that suit your requirements.

If you're going to mod the units, you might as well just go straight to EnABL. Ron Clark & I have been discussing this via email, and it appears that he's cracked exactly what it does & why in technical terms, which no-one has actually been able to do up till now.

steve s · Post by **steve s** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:12 pm

Scottmoose wrote: Don't get me wrong here -I don't dislike Lowthers. Quite the opposite; I think they make some of the best FR drivers on the planet. Steve's EX4s are superb devices -probably the best FR units I've heard to date. However, Lowthers, like all expensive drivers, have the weight of mythology to support. They're ultimately superior to cheaper equivalents, but they should be given that they're 600% more expensive. That gives you a head-start; I suppose what I'm trying to say is that however good your drivers, you still need to get them in a good cabinet, and make sure you've picked units that suit your requirements.

.

that is my point from another angle scott..

most of us have spent alot of money in the past on shop bought hi fi

so if nearly £2k in drivers can get you to that level.. to me thats good value...
not that they cost me that.of course...the lowther px scheme is great..

but how far would £2k at the olde hi fi shoppe get you in terms of hi end quality....

steve

Paul Barker · Post by **Paul Barker** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:41 pm

Well I just tried the Rockwood woofers in paralllel with the pm6a in ob's

A good result so far, the pm6a is the stronger part of the combination. But it is unfair to judge the Rockwood's at the moment since the 211 can't exactly control a bass unit properly.

I think I prefer the pm6a in this aplication to the Fostex, so I think that the 108e sigmas will be going up for sale along with the ariel cabinets 4 vifa woofers and the scanspeek tweeters, loads of other drivers I've wasted money on for the last 4 years .

I'll pop up picks later when I figure out how to get them off the blackberry on to the puter. Spose if all else fails I can email myself,

audio-talk

James D OB's

#31

#32

#33

#34

#35

#36

#37

#38

#39

#40

#41 PM6a

#42

#43

#44

#45