The Audio-Talk Cycling thread.

[IslandPink]

It's a shame about your cynicism Mark

It's a shame you think about me that way , Ray, and I think you are just ill-informed.
I'm actually very passionate about cycling, and the history of cycling, and I am in awe of the undoped or almost-undoped riders who have succeeded in our sport. For instance I would probably decide on Chris Froome as my favourite rider of all time, if asked to make that decision.
However I spotted what was going on with Lance Armstrong several years before it became obvious to everyone.
I enjoyed watching all of the great action in the late 80's but was genuinely upset when i found out that riders like Pedro Delgado, Steven Rooks and Gert-Jan Theunisse were doping.

Can I just ask a couple of background questions ?
1. Have you read Willy Voet's book, which contains a lot of insight into the bad, but also some good. Do you know which significant riders were clean ?
2. Are you aware of the MPCC and the current two-tier system we have in pro cycling - and which World Tour teams are still signed up ?

[Ray P]

To answer your questions Mark, yes and yes.

Perhaps you think I just collect miles but in fact I'm also passionate about cyling history - have been since I was around 12yrs old (I'm 65 now) when I first joined a club, which was about the time I read a Tom Simpson biography that triggered an ongoing interest in the dark side of the sport.

Many people 'knew' about Armstrong, proving it was the issue. I recall watching live the 'solo' Floyd landis TdF win and being suspicious of his overnight miracle. I'm with you on Froome, who, IMO, should also have the bragging rights as 2012 TdF winner.

I don't share your cynicism about Vingegard (Jumbo-Visma?) in this year's TdF because i think his team have done an amazing job of protecting him and yesterday my suspicions about Pogacar's condition seemed to be well-based.

[IslandPink]

..... and yesterday my suspicions about Pogacar's condition.....

Your suspicions from Tuesday, presumably ?
This is what happened on Tuesday :


..and if you say "he was well down on Vingegaard", then that's just a circular argument.

I have just watched the end of Wednesday's stage.
Are you aware that Pogacar crashed in the first hour of the stage and injured his left knee and elbow, on the same side as his not-fully-healed broken wrist ?

[Ray P]

I'm really not sure of the point you're trying to make Mark? So far you've told me I'm ill-informed and asked condascending questions about my cycling knowledge!

Of course I'm aware of Pagacar's crash - as it happens I followed the whole of Wednesday's stage, via the website and then live on TV for the final 80Km.

My suspicions, apparently well-founded, were that Pogacar wasn't fit enough to win because of his injury and I thought he might fade - in a subsequent post race interview he more or less said that. I think Jumbo Visma's team tactics may have been predicated on that assumption.

Vingegard is simply an exceptional athlete. Is he a doper - I don't know but I have no evidence to support that assumption so I choose to presume someone is innocent until proven otherwise and I think it is rather sad that so many people are prepared to work on the opposite basis, though I understand how history can create that perspective. Rest assured, Vingegard will be subject to the most rigorous doping checks, especially as he's riding in France on the TdF.

Incidentally, Is the assumption that teams who aren't signed-up to MPCC must be cheating? I see UAE aren't signed up to MPCC but also observe that some of the teams who are are putting in a good showing, Wednesday's stage winner for example. Not sure how that fits the two-tier model?

[IslandPink]

Ok, I'll back off a little, sorry.
The non-MPCC teams are not exactly cheating, but they are using Ketones and Tramadol at least, these are yet to be made illegal, but Tramadol will be next year.
The problem isn't just with Vingegaard, it's the whole team, who seem to be outperforming everyone. Take Wout van Aart, a roadman sprinter who is up there day after day in the mountains, when his similar rival Matthieu van de Poel from cyclo-cross and the Classics is nowhere on GC. It looks too much like Jalabert in the 1990's.

I spoke to four of my cycling buddies at work separately on Wednesday and Thursday, they all came up to me with the question, 'what did you think of Vingegaard's TT ?' and voiced the same concerns.

My best guess at the moment is Roxadustat.

[Ray P]

It's a good thing that our courts don't work on the basis of best guesses.

Without hard evidence it's not possible to reach any sound conclusion about whether anyone is cheating, and that includes MPCC teams. I don't think it helps the sport to assume any winner is a cheat, which sadly seems to be the case in many situations, the cynicism is malignant.

As for the van Aart vs van de Poel question, perhaps you need to factor in the motivation aspect of riding for the leader's team?

[IslandPink]

OK, let me explain myself a little better.

1. My suspicions, apparently well-founded, were that Pogacar wasn't fit enough to win because of his injury and I thought he might fade - in a subsequent post race interview he more or less said that. I think Jumbo Visma's team tactics may have been predicated on that assumption.

2. Vingegard is simply an exceptional athlete.Rest assured,

3. Vingegard will be subject to the most rigorous doping checks, especially as he's riding in France on the TdF.

4. Incidentally, Is the assumption that teams who aren't signed-up to MPCC must be cheating? I see UAE aren't signed up to MPCC but also observe that some of the teams who are are putting in a good showing, Wednesday's stage winner for example. Not sure how that fits the two-tier model?

1. I don't see the data point that Vingegaard won decisively on Wednesday and Pogacar cracked is a strong piece of evidence to choose. You can easily interprete this both ways -

Ray : Vingegaard is the superior althlete, Pogacar finally cracked because he didn't get enough racing in the run-up ; the fall he had wasn't enough to affect that because he conceded afterwards.

Mark : Pogacar has been banging his head against the brick wall of Jumbo Visma at the front of the race for nearly three weeks. it's not surprising that he finally cracked when dealing with a team and a rider that are doing something suspicious, like winning a time trial by 5%. The fall in the first hour can't have helped, and he handles the extreme heat a little less well that Vingegaard. He has shown himself to be extremely generous in defeat.

2. I agree with you and have not suggested otherwise. I have been previously well-disposed to him. I still think he's a decent guy.

3. He will, and is. This will not pick out a rider's whose team are potentially using something new and unethical that is not currently on the proscribed list. This is where we were in the early 90's. You must know that this is a weak argument in the context of Armstrong.

4. First point, NO. They just use a few things that are borderline unethical but not banned by the UCI yet. The two-tier situation is alive and well. The first MPCC rider is Hindley at 7th and 13:50. He won the Giro last year. All of the French GC contenders have fallen away from contention in the last 4 years. How can you suggest that one good rider with the right tactical nous, winning yesterday, could upset the general trend ?

[IslandPink]

It's a good thing that our courts don't work on the basis of best guesses.

Without hard evidence it's not possible to reach any sound conclusion about whether anyone is cheating, and that includes MPCC teams. I don't think it helps the sport to assume any winner is a cheat, which sadly seems to be the case in many situations, the cynicism is malignant.

Thankfully this is merely a forum thread, not a court of law.
I'm just putting it down to see what, if anything, we find out in the coming years.

re. the cynicism being malignant, tell that to Greg Lemond.
Also, let me know what you think of the Tom Pidcock and Daniel Friebe interview.

[IslandPink]

ps. we can drop the subject if you want, Ray.

[Ray P]

Sounds like a plan Mark, no point in arguing, especially when we both love cycling and are both fundamentally anti-cheating.

I'm looking forward to catching the highlights of today's stage later and then the proession into Paris tomorrow.

In the meantime, I'm willing on the England mens cricket team and been impressed with Lewis Hamilton doing a rabbit out of a hat trick.

[IslandPink]

Good stuff.
I'm just watching the closing stages of today's stage. Very emotional for Pinot.

In the background, my friend alerted me to the fact it's the National 24hr today, in Cheshire. Michael Hutchinson of TTs and Cycling magazine fame is apparently riding his first 24hr.... and it's pIssing down !
Rather him than me.

[Ray P]

Thr crowds were amazing for Pinot's 'farewell' and it was nice to see him get the most-combative award yesterday - the stage win was just a bit too much of an ask.

Another good stage yesterday, lots of aggressive riding, Pogacar making something of a 'comeback statement and the Yates brothers 3rd and 4th. Pidcock faded again though, I really thought he could manage a top 10. Phillipsen for the stage win in Paris?

I can't imagine riding for 24hrs, let alone in that weather. I did 23miles yesterday morning in constant rain and my spirits were certainly dampened, the best I can say is at least I wasn't cold. With the recent unsettled weather I've been using my winter bike, with wider treaded tyres and mudguards, for some of my outings.

[IslandPink]

Re. 24, there was about 5 to 6 hours of heavy rain last night, here in N.Wales and Cheshire, it would have been grim.
They had also had to change the main circuit to a hillier one due to roadworks, so there's been a lot of climbing.
Hutchinson seemed to be creeping up the table steadily this morning, but he's falling back again in the final stages
https://twitter.com/MerseyRoads24

[Ray P]

So that's the TdF for another year - only four weeks until the Vuelta!

I enjoyed watching a GCN documentary on Sean Kelly last evening and I've lined up one on the Festina team and the 1998 scandal for later in the week.

[Ray P]

I've been following the TdF Femme on GCN for the past week and have really enjoyed the raising, especially the penultimate stage that finished on the Tourmalet. I found myself willing on Lotte Kopecky, what a gutsy TdF she rode.