Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

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Bigman80
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#1 Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

Hi all,

I'm nearly finished assembling my phonostage and got to a point where I can't really find a wire for the PCB to RCA socket links.

I've toyed with the Idea of twisting some pairs of 20AWG stranded Neotech UP-OCC hookup wire together and using that.

Question is, will I get any hum from using a twisted pair rather than a shielded cable.

Thanks.
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pre65
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#2 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by pre65 »

Bigman80 wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 pm Hi all,


I've toyed with the Idea of twisting some pairs of 20AWG stranded Neotech UP-OCC hookup wire together and using that.


Thanks.
Why ?

What do you hope the advantage will be ?
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Bigman80
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#3 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

pre65 wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:26 pm
Bigman80 wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 pm Hi all,


I've toyed with the Idea of twisting some pairs of 20AWG stranded Neotech UP-OCC hookup wire together and using that.


Thanks.
Why ?

What do you hope the advantage will be ?
I like UP-OCC cables and would like to use it in the phonostage. The problem being there is only one company that makes a shielded version and that's $70 pf.

I don't want to pay that so was wondering if a twisted pair of neotech would be suitable or if I'd get hum from the lack of shielding.
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#4 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Ant »

For a piece of wire that short any old wire will do.
I wouldnt think there is anything to be gained by using something exotic if its only going to be a couple of inches in length. Hum pickup would not be a problem if it is inside a metal case (i presume it is in a metal case)
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Bigman80
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#5 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

Ant wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:32 pm For a piece of wire that short any old wire will do.
I wouldnt think there is anything to be gained by using something exotic if its only going to be a couple of inches in length
Ok, yes it is.

Cool. Thanks.
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DSJR
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#6 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by DSJR »

Please be aware of the tiny gauge wire in your cartridge usually copper - I admit an MC will have a few feet tops I suspect and possibly less - MM types have tens of feet in their windings I gather.

I haven't done it, but looking at the usually thin and fine circuit track on many phono stage boards, you could take a reasonable gauge mains cable, remove any one conductor and fully strip the outer from the individual copper strands. use just one strand per conductor inside the phono stage. I honestly wonder if you'd hear any difference of a couple of inches of this compared to a couple of inches of designer boutique wire? Maybe you would, but it's amazing how so many differences pretty well disappear as soon as you don't know which 'wire' is playing. I've personal experience of this, so apologies for being a wet blanket over all your doings Biggie ;) We are so easily fooled...

The cables I use started off being swapped around and tried out using different connectors, even the Neutrik pro plugs you seem to dislike for some reason I can't hear myself. I found that one or two cables seemed to be missed when not in use as musical insight and clarity 'appeared' to be diluted, one or two seemed to sit on the sound too much and others didn't matter as they all sounded pretty much the same and didn't severely get in the way. Just my vibes obviously and ymmv on this as I suspect it does ;)
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#7 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Wolfgang »

For phono wiring I use the Canare L4E6S . One can get it at Markertek or other studio suppliers.
https://markertek.resultspage.com/searc ... sitepref=1
It's sounds very neutral (not adding anything that would pop out)and has two conductors plus shield. I use it like in "g", only one side of the shielding (always input) connected to ground. Plus and minus from the cartridge and plus/ground from the phono pre use equally sized conductors like this. I also use shielded cables inside the metal chassis from input RCA to phono PCB and from there to the output RCA.
asymetric shielding.jpg
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#8 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

DSJR wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:16 am Please be aware of the tiny gauge wire in your cartridge usually copper - I admit an MC will have a few feet tops I suspect and possibly less - MM types have tens of feet in their windings I gather.

I haven't done it, but looking at the usually thin and fine circuit track on many phono stage boards, you could take a reasonable gauge mains cable, remove any one conductor and fully strip the outer from the individual copper strands. use just one strand per conductor inside the phono stage. I honestly wonder if you'd hear any difference of a couple of inches of this compared to a couple of inches of designer boutique wire? Maybe you would, but it's amazing how so many differences pretty well disappear as soon as you don't know which 'wire' is playing. I've personal experience of this, so apologies for being a wet blanket over all your doings Biggie ;) We are so easily fooled...

The cables I use started off being swapped around and tried out using different connectors, even the Neutrik pro plugs you seem to dislike for some reason I can't hear myself. I found that one or two cables seemed to be missed when not in use as musical insight and clarity 'appeared' to be diluted, one or two seemed to sit on the sound too much and others didn't matter as they all sounded pretty much the same and didn't severely get in the way. Just my vibes obviously and ymmv on this as I suspect it does ;)
Hi Dave,

Don't stress about those Neutrik plugs. It was just my experience that when they were removed for standard plugs, the Mark Grant cable sounded a lot better. Like all things, it only matters to me as that was my experience. If you don't hear that, it's a moot point!!

You see, whether an inch or a foot, I do believe that the quality of materials matter. I tried some BICC cable and it sounded perfectly ok. Removed it, tried some neotech and I thought it was obviously cleaner sounding. Now, that may be expectation bias or it may be legit but I prefered the neotech so that will stay in. If I think it's better, then I'm happier 😂

An unshielded twisted pair of individual cables to each input has resulted in no audible hum at any volume so I am happy. Next will be to get some more and do the same on the output but for now, I'll just keep listening to it. It's very good!
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#9 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

Wolfgang wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:13 pm For phono wiring I use the Canare L4E6S . One can get it at Markertek or other studio suppliers.
https://markertek.resultspage.com/searc ... sitepref=1
It's sounds very neutral (not adding anything that would pop out)and has two conductors plus shield. I use it like in "g", only one side of the shielding (always input) connected to ground. Plus and minus from the cartridge and plus/ground from the phono pre use equally sized conductors like this. I also use shielded cables inside the metal chassis from input RCA to phono PCB and from there to the output RCA.
asymetric shielding.jpg

Thanks for this. I'll order a bit and give it a go.
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#10 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Neal »

As Ant says you can use pretty much anything, RS do some nice hook up cable, silver plated that you can twist together for short lengths, you really don’t need anything special. One idea: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/harsh-en ... e/8417346/
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DSJR
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#11 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by DSJR »

I suppose I'm an idiot here because I kind of went through this learning experience thirty to forty odd years ago - I promise I'm not being patronising here. The best comparison of sorts I can give is when I went from collecting every leaflet and catalogue at shows (and spending months absorbing it all after :oops: ) to going round the rooms, chatting to pals and reps and then retiring to the bar for a much needed alcoholic drink or three after - cough...

Biggie, it may be an idea to start with something ordinary, get used to it and THEN change for something posh? That way you might just get a proper handle on what you're hearing - or not...

As for the plugs, I often recycle old plugs and swap around over the years. I have a few sets of the aforesaid Neutrik pro plugs and one or two sets have been round the block a bit, so I'm happy to say that for me, they don't get in the way sonically. I have two sets of Mark Grant, one with original plugs and the other Neutrik Pro's and for all my sins, I'm damned if I can really hear any difference - What I CAN hear though, is adding a couple of firmly fitting ferrites on them (they are based on an rf grade coax cable when all's said and done).
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#12 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by ed »

this thread got 158 views in much less time than my thread got 40 odd views, so I'll hijack this one, again shamelessly....

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#13 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Wolfgang »

Looking at a signal (music or sine wave) with a scope or spectrum analyzer shows only how it looks if processed in this very particular way. Subtracting two signals (music or sine wave) from each other after sending them through different cables shows/proves only how the net result of this process looks and sounds.

When we listen to music we don’t care about any subtraction or how the signal might look on a scope. We only care about how much the music can transport our imagination, emotions, expectations in order to feel good, get goose bumps, flow with what we listen to.
Different cables, circuit designs, different power supplies, different caps can affect this experience a lot in different directions no matter how close two measurements might be or how conclusive our thinking about this topic might appear.

Do we listen and feel or do we think about concepts and measurements while we listen to music?

It’s like counting the letters of two poems and if the numbers of the same letters are the same or almost the same and the difference is close to zero (subtracting these numbers from each other) then the content, the power of expression, and the effect on the reader must be equal. Right?

Or it’s like measuring the percentage of different colors used in two different paintings and if it is the same the paintings must be equal in their expression, their artfulness, their effect on the people. No difference? This would mean that a Modern Art painting and a painting from the Renaissance would have the same effect on us if the percentage of the colors are the same which have been used in both paintings?

Looks to me like a very strange conclusion but this is the outcome if I follow the logic of the above YouTube video.
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#14 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

DSJR wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:37 pm I suppose I'm an idiot here because I kind of went through this learning experience thirty to forty odd years ago - I promise I'm not being patronising here. The best comparison of sorts I can give is when I went from collecting every leaflet and catalogue at shows (and spending months absorbing it all after :oops: ) to going round the rooms, chatting to pals and reps and then retiring to the bar for a much needed alcoholic drink or three after - cough...

Biggie, it may be an idea to start with something ordinary, get used to it and THEN change for something posh? That way you might just get a proper handle on what you're hearing - or not...

As for the plugs, I often recycle old plugs and swap around over the years. I have a few sets of the aforesaid Neutrik pro plugs and one or two sets have been round the block a bit, so I'm happy to say that for me, they don't get in the way sonically. I have two sets of Mark Grant, one with original plugs and the other Neutrik Pro's and for all my sins, I'm damned if I can really hear any difference - What I CAN hear though, is adding a couple of firmly fitting ferrites on them (they are based on an rf grade coax cable when all's said and done).
Dave, I'll take your suggestion under advisement. There's still some silver plated BICC wire in there. I will leave that in place for now. I'll see what, if anything, happens when I change it in a few weeks.
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#15 Re: Cable suggestions for phonostage innards

Post by Bigman80 »

Neal wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:08 pm As Ant says you can use pretty much anything, RS do some nice hook up cable, silver plated that you can twist together for short lengths, you really don’t need anything special. One idea: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/harsh-en ... e/8417346/
Looks good. Thanks!!
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