Measuring amplifier power used
- Thermionic Idler
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#1 Measuring amplifier power used
Hi all,
As some of you may know I currently have plans to build a set of OTL "Beast" power amps with a configuration of 12 EL509's per channel, good for 75 watts or so.
Bruce now has the "Pinnacle" 300B-based amplifier, which as I love the 300B sound would seem to be the best of both worlds, but up until now I'd dismissed them on the basis that 6 watts per channel really would not be enough. However, with the FF225WK based Metronomes seeming to be quite efficient, I'm starting to wonder if the 300B amplifier might actually be an option. I know Steve used low-power amps with them before.
I had the idea of placing an oscilloscope on the speaker terminals to try and get an idea of our typical power usage in a listening session, should be able to work it out from the voltage displacement on the waveform.
Question is how to work it out - I know the basic equation of P = V(squared) / R, but additional complications creep in when dealing with alternating waveforms. The amp is rated at 6 watts, but I assume that's the standard RMS measurement (the 1/1.4 multiplier). According to Bruce's website, It's actually capable of making a perfect 1000 Hz square wave at 8 volts peak to peak into 8 ohms - and I make that as 8 watts?
So I'm a bit confused about what I need to be looking for. Maybe I should post this on the Transcendent forum and get input from the man himself, but I thought I'd see what you guys think.
Thanks in advance.
As some of you may know I currently have plans to build a set of OTL "Beast" power amps with a configuration of 12 EL509's per channel, good for 75 watts or so.
Bruce now has the "Pinnacle" 300B-based amplifier, which as I love the 300B sound would seem to be the best of both worlds, but up until now I'd dismissed them on the basis that 6 watts per channel really would not be enough. However, with the FF225WK based Metronomes seeming to be quite efficient, I'm starting to wonder if the 300B amplifier might actually be an option. I know Steve used low-power amps with them before.
I had the idea of placing an oscilloscope on the speaker terminals to try and get an idea of our typical power usage in a listening session, should be able to work it out from the voltage displacement on the waveform.
Question is how to work it out - I know the basic equation of P = V(squared) / R, but additional complications creep in when dealing with alternating waveforms. The amp is rated at 6 watts, but I assume that's the standard RMS measurement (the 1/1.4 multiplier). According to Bruce's website, It's actually capable of making a perfect 1000 Hz square wave at 8 volts peak to peak into 8 ohms - and I make that as 8 watts?
So I'm a bit confused about what I need to be looking for. Maybe I should post this on the Transcendent forum and get input from the man himself, but I thought I'd see what you guys think.
Thanks in advance.
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
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#2 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
To be honest, if the same speakers will be used, in the same room etc., then all you have to do is note the Voltage the 'scope shows (and peaks are easier to watch), then you know how many Volts the OTL will have to do to produce the same loudness.
That's how I would look at it. Seemples!
That's how I would look at it. Seemples!
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
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#3 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Yes, 8V / 8R = 1A, x 8V = 8W.8 volts peak to peak into 8 ohms - and I make that as 8 watts?
You might be surprised how little power you actually need in your room though. 'Scoping it could be quite revealing.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#4 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Do you have a TRMS DMM specced to at least 1kHz and a 10 watt or greater, 0.1ohm 1% resister?
- Thermionic Idler
- Old Hand
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- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:22 pm
- Location: Southsea
#5 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Thanks all. Sadly SteveH I don't think my DMM matches those specs.
Earlier I had Peter Gabriel's "Kiss That Frog" playing at quite a healthy level - it has a pretty heavy bass line, and the scope was indicating up to 15 volts peak-to-peak - I make that nearly 30 watts - interesting as my present amp is rated at 15wpc.
Earlier I had Peter Gabriel's "Kiss That Frog" playing at quite a healthy level - it has a pretty heavy bass line, and the scope was indicating up to 15 volts peak-to-peak - I make that nearly 30 watts - interesting as my present amp is rated at 15wpc.
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
#6 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
15v p/p is 3.5w
15 / 2 = 7.5
7.5 / 1.414 = 5.3v rms
5.3 * 5 3 / 8 = 3.5w
Assuming 8 ohm speaker
15 / 2 = 7.5
7.5 / 1.414 = 5.3v rms
5.3 * 5 3 / 8 = 3.5w
Assuming 8 ohm speaker
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- Thermionic Idler
- Old Hand
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:22 pm
- Location: Southsea
#7 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Thanks Nick
I'll just be over here in the corner with the dunce's cap on.
Only 3.5 watts - interesting...
I'll just be over here in the corner with the dunce's cap on.
Only 3.5 watts - interesting...
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20157
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#8 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Interesting, didn't think it would be that much.
I'd probably find that too loud. Mind you taking the bass into aaccount...
I'd probably find that too loud. Mind you taking the bass into aaccount...
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#9 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Remember we are talking about peaks, not steady state signals. The ratio of peak to average is one of the reasons I rant about having enough headroom in amps.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20157
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
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#10 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Oh yes indeed, and quite right too.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20157
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
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#11 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Sorry that sounds a bit like I'm taking the pee, I'm not.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#12 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
It didnt, well, not to me anyway
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20157
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
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#13 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Coolio.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#14 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
Well, the first watt is the loudest.
It depends on a number of factors, so putting a scope on there is a good idea. That way, you can record the peak voltage, convert to RMS, and figure the minimum amplifier power you'd need.
Speaker sensitivity is one of the biggest contributing factors. For instance, a while ago I was playing with some 6.5" mini-subs used up to a few hundred Hz. They're in a small ported box and come in at about 80dB@1w. Naturally, I connected up a large amplifier - the one I used is capable of around 2KW/ch. At demo levels, the -6dB light was lighting up on every kick drum hit, indicating ~500w peaks on each channel.
A speaker that's 90dB@1w would've been at ~50w peaks, and 100dB@1w would've been at ~5w peaks.
At more sensible levels, I was getting the -24dB light occasionally, which is still a few watts.
IIRC, the big Mets come in at the mid-low 90s at 1w input, so, if you're happy with staying at moderate levels, I expect a couple of watts per side will be just fine.
Chris
It depends on a number of factors, so putting a scope on there is a good idea. That way, you can record the peak voltage, convert to RMS, and figure the minimum amplifier power you'd need.
Speaker sensitivity is one of the biggest contributing factors. For instance, a while ago I was playing with some 6.5" mini-subs used up to a few hundred Hz. They're in a small ported box and come in at about 80dB@1w. Naturally, I connected up a large amplifier - the one I used is capable of around 2KW/ch. At demo levels, the -6dB light was lighting up on every kick drum hit, indicating ~500w peaks on each channel.
A speaker that's 90dB@1w would've been at ~50w peaks, and 100dB@1w would've been at ~5w peaks.
At more sensible levels, I was getting the -24dB light occasionally, which is still a few watts.
IIRC, the big Mets come in at the mid-low 90s at 1w input, so, if you're happy with staying at moderate levels, I expect a couple of watts per side will be just fine.
Chris
#15 Re: Measuring amplifier power used
I got a little bit derailed by the title of this thread..
amplifier power used I thought was the power coming out of the wall, for which I use this:
Title made sense to me cos the room heaters I use have power in thats not on the same continent as power out.....anyway, as you were chaps
amplifier power used I thought was the power coming out of the wall, for which I use this:
Title made sense to me cos the room heaters I use have power in thats not on the same continent as power out.....anyway, as you were chaps
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be